Drexel dragonThe Math ForumDonate to the Math Forum



Search All of the Math Forum:

Views expressed in these public forums are not endorsed by Drexel University or The Math Forum.


Math Forum » Discussions » sci.math.* » sci.math

Topic: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Replies: 90   Last Post: Nov 1, 2005 8:08 PM

Advanced Search

Back to Topic List Back to Topic List Jump to Tree View Jump to Tree View   Messages: [ Previous | Next ]
Randy

Posts: 19
Registered: 12/13/04
Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Posted: Oct 27, 2005 6:52 PM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

tchow@lsa.umich.edu wrote:
> In article <djr27u$fa$1@joe.rice.edu>, Randy <joe@burgershack.com> wrote:
>

>>OK. In lay terms (as the OP requested), why is NP meaningful to
>>practitioners? What utilitarian subtlety does it capture that
>>"exponential" does not?

>
>
> As you mentioned elsewhere, part of your difficulty may be that problems
> that are beyond NP do not arise in practice as often. However, there is
> one familiar type of problem that is not (known to be) in NP, namely the
> playing of strategy games such as chess or go. Depending on exactly how
> you choose to generalize these games to arbitrarily large boards, they
> are at least PSPACE-complete and sometimes EXP-complete. You can see
> intuitively that they are not (known to be) in NP, because even if I'm
> a chess-playing god and can tell you what the best move in any given
> position is, there's no easy way for you to verify that it's the best
> move. The chess-playing god could give you a huge table of possibilities
> as proof, but checking the huge table takes exponential time, rather than
> polynomial time.


Interesting. I'd never thought of each step in a game as being a
problem in its own right. But is that a decision problem? Because
*any* solution to 3-SAT is a success, whereas it's likely that only one
move in a game of chess or one choice in continuing a path through a TSP
solution will lead to an optimal solution.

It also seems like there must be some sort of linear sequential factor
to be considered in solving games, since the moves that come before must
dictate the value of the alternative subsequent moves.

I *think* I remember that any optimization problem can be converted into
a decision problem. Perhaps I'm just not seeing how search-driven
problems (chess, TSP, A*, etc) can be so reformulated.

>
> Practically speaking, knowing that there's a difference between playing
> strategy games and solving NP-complete problems means that if you have
> your eye on writing a killer go program that will beat all the competition
> and sell millions of copies in East Asia, then you will know better than
> to, say, attempt to formulate the problem as an integer linear program
> and throw CPLEX at it. Nor will you waste time studying Hochbaum's
> "Approximation Algorithms for NP-Hard Problems" or Downey and Fellows's
> "Parameterized Complexity" even though both books contain much valuable
> material on algorithms for hard problems.


OK. I'm convinced. It's time to reevaluate. Thanks,

Randy

--
Randy Crawford http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~rand rand AT rice DOT edu


Date Subject Author
10/25/05
Read On NP Completeness and Intractability
nimmi_srivastav@yahoo.com
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Dr. David Kirkby
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
ianparker2@gmail.com
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Pubkeybreaker
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
osmium
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Pubkeybreaker
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Willem
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Bryan Olson
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Willem
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Ed Prochak
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Dr. David Kirkby
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Gene
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
MartDowd
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
RobertSzefler
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Dr. David Kirkby
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Pubkeybreaker
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Wim Benthem
10/26/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
RobertSzefler
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
KP Bhat
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
stephen@nomail.com
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
tchow@lsa.umich.edu
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
googmeister@gmail.com
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
nimmi_srivastav@yahoo.com
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
stephen@nomail.com
10/26/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
tchow@lsa.umich.edu
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
stephen@nomail.com
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
stephen@nomail.com
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
C6L1V@shaw.ca
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
stephen@nomail.com
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Wim Benthem
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
stephen@nomail.com
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
stephen@nomail.com
10/26/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
tchow@lsa.umich.edu
10/26/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Arthur J. O'Dwyer
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Willem
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
stephen@nomail.com
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
stephen@nomail.com
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
stephen@nomail.com
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
tchow@lsa.umich.edu
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
tchow@lsa.umich.edu
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Joe Hendrix
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Joe Hendrix
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
stephen@nomail.com
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Arthur J. O'Dwyer
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
googmeister@gmail.com
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
tchow@lsa.umich.edu
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Arthur J. O'Dwyer
10/28/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Joe Hendrix
10/28/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Ben Rudiak-Gould
10/28/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Bryan Olson
10/28/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Pekka Orponen
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
tchow@lsa.umich.edu
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
tchow@lsa.umich.edu
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Michael J. Hennebry
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
stephen@nomail.com
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
stephen@nomail.com
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Willem
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Arthur J. O'Dwyer
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
googmeister@gmail.com
10/31/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Oliver Wong
10/31/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Robert Israel
11/1/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Willem
11/1/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
googmeister@gmail.com
11/1/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Willem
11/1/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Torkel Franzen
11/1/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
googmeister@gmail.com
11/1/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Oliver Wong
11/1/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Willem
11/1/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Robert Israel
10/26/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/26/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
stephen@nomail.com
10/26/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Bryan Olson
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Bryan Olson
10/27/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Randy
10/25/05
Read Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Pat Farrell
10/25/05
Read On what "NP-Hard" means; was: Re: On NP Completeness and Intractability
Bryan Olson

Point your RSS reader here for a feed of the latest messages in this topic.

[Privacy Policy] [Terms of Use]

© Drexel University 1994-2014. All Rights Reserved.
The Math Forum is a research and educational enterprise of the Drexel University School of Education.