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Topic: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Replies: 778   Last Post: Aug 8, 2006 12:02 PM

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malbrain@yahoo.com

Posts: 289
Registered: 7/20/05
Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Posted: Jul 18, 2006 12:07 PM
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cbrown@cbrownsystems.com wrote:
> Karl Malbrain wrote:
> > cbrown@cbrownsystems.com wrote:
> > > Karl Malbrain wrote:
> > > > cbr...@cbrownsystems.com wrote:
> > > > > Karl Malbrain wrote:
> > > > > > Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> > > > > > > Karl Malbrain wrote:
> > > > > > > > Patricia Shanahan wrote:
> > > > > > > >> Ultimately, I don't think the subject of this thread even asks the right
> > > > > > > >> question. It should be "Set theory: Should you use?". I don't even know
> > > > > > > >> what it means to believe set theory.
> > > > > > > >>

> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Believing means to agree with the axioms of set theory.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > intransitive verb
> > > > > > > > 1 a : to have a firm religious faith b : to accept as true, genuine, or
> > > > > > > > real <ideals we believe in> <believes in ghosts>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > karl m
> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That pushes it back to the question of what does it mean to "agree with
> > > > > > > the axioms".

> > > > > >
> > > > > > agree:
> > > > > > 1. To harmonize in opinion, statement, or action; to be in
> > > > > > unison or concord; to be or become united or consistent;
> > > > > > to concur; as, all parties agree in the expediency of the
> > > > > > law.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You agree with the given system of axioms that negate the
> > > > > > inconsistencies of the previous system.
> > > > > >

> > > > > > > It could either mean "agree that they appear to be good, workable,
> > > > > > > axioms", or "agree that they are true, in some absolute sense that would
> > > > > > > make contradictory sets of axioms false".

> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, sets of axioms that are contradictory within themselves make an
> > > > > > inconsistent system. So both are true.
> > > > > >

> > > > > > > I agree with them in the first sense, but not the second.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't see how.
> > > > > >

> > > > >
> > > > > Let theory A be geometry using Euclid's rules, including the parallel
> > > > > postulate; i.e., loosely speaking, that parallel lines don't intersect.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Let theory B be Euclid's postulates, excluding the parallel postulate,
> > > > > and instead including the postulate that every pair of distinct
> > > > > parallel lines intersect at two points.
> > > > >
> > > > > Theory A is useful in certain cases; theory B is useful in other cases.
> > > > > Why must one be "true" and the other "false", simply because the two
> > > > > theories contradict each other?

> > > >
> > > > Yes, the two systems within themselves must hold their counterparts
> > > > false.
> > > >

> > >
> > > So according to you, on one day, I believe that planar geometry is true
> > > (if I am working that day in the plane), and the next day, I cease to
> > > believe in the truth of planar geometry, and instead believe in the
> > > truth of spherical geometry?

> >
> > Belief means you agree with the axioms.

>
> Consider:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_group_theory
>
> I don't "agree" or "disagree" with the axioms that define a group. What
> could it even mean to "disagree" with the axiom "for every element,
> there exists an inverse"? I can only agree or disagree to /use/ those
> axioms as the basis of a logical argument.


Let's take the axiom of induction. We agree among ourselves that we
don't need to prove each and every case individually. We agree that
all we need is a base case and an exposition that truth at case n
implies truth at case n+1.

> There is, to be sure, a larger sense in which I "agree" that when
> someone writes "the functions in the set X form a group under
> composition", the writer almost surely uses the same set of axioms that
> I use to define a group; thus we "agree on the axioms", and we agree
> that every element has an inverse, etc.


It's stronger. The axioms are agreements within themselves.

> And I can agree or disagree that it logically follows that the elements
> of X do then indeed form a group under composition.
>
> And most philosophically, I might agree or disagree that these axioms
> capture certain mathematical intuitions; for example, that my internal
> conception of the integers obeys or does not obey the axioms of a group
> with respect to addition.
>
> But that seems to have little to do with "agreeing with the axioms", or
> believing those axioms to be "true" in some philosophical sense.


It boils down to one's commitment within the given system.
(....)
> > >
> > > On the other hand, I do believe in the truth of the statement "if we
> > > assume Euclidean geometry with the parallel postulate, then all
> > > triangles have angles summing to 180 degrees"; but that is a belief in
> > > the truth of the fact that it logically follows from the given axioms -
> > > not a belief in the truth of the axioms themselves.

> >
> > Exactly. The axioms are not things in themselves.
> >

>
> Sorry, I don't really understand that phrase, which seems to pop up in
> philosophical discussions.
>
> What does it mean, for example, to say that the axiom in ZFC "(A = B)
> iff an element x is in A if and only if it is in B" is not "a thing in
> itself"?


Something is a thing-in-itself when you lack the basis to further break
it down into more primitive components.

> Is the number 2 a "thing in itself"? Is anything mathematical a "thing
> in itself"?


No, it's zero and the successor twice.

karl m



Date Subject Author
7/12/06
Read Set Theory: Should you believe?
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7/12/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
malbrain@yahoo.com
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7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Patricia Shanahan
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Chas Brown
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Chas Brown
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
malbrain@yahoo.com
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Chas Brown
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Chas Brown
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gerry Myerson
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Chas Brown
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gerry Myerson
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Chas Brown
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Chas Brown
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Lee Rudolph
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
David Bernier
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
George Greene
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
malbrain@yahoo.com
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
malbrain@yahoo.com
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Russell Easterly
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
jirka@5z.com
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
jirka@5z.com
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Patricia Shanahan
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Jan Burse
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/27/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/27/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/28/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/29/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/29/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/30/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/30/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/30/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/30/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/29/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/26/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/26/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/27/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/28/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/28/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/29/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/30/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/30/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
herbzet@cox.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/27/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/27/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/29/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/29/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/30/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/31/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
namducnguyen
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Dr. David Kirkby
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
jirka@5z.com
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
jirka@5z.com
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Dr. David Kirkby
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
R. Srinivasan
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
jirka@5z.com
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Chris Menzel
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/26/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Chris Menzel
7/26/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/28/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
George Greene
7/28/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Pierre Asselin
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Dr. David Kirkby
7/26/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/26/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/26/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Pierre Asselin
7/27/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/26/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
jirka@5z.com
7/26/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gc
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
jirka@5z.com
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
jirka@5z.com
7/25/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Patricia Shanahan
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
David Bernier
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Keith Ramsay
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
David Bernier
7/22/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
8/3/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Toni Lassila
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Phil Carmody
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Y. T.
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Peter Webb
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gerry Myerson
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Kevin Karn
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Hatto von Aquitanien
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Barb Knox
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Daryl McCullough
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Peter Webb
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Chas Brown
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
T.H. Ray
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Lee Rudolph
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
James Dolan
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Peter Webb
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Russell Easterly
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
stephen@nomail.com
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
lDontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
John Jones
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Kevin Karn
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Russell Easterly
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Kevin Karn
8/4/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
seand602
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gerry Myerson
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
R. Srinivasan
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
lDontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Aatu Koskensilta
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/16/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Peter Webb
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gerry Myerson
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
R. Srinivasan
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
R. Srinivasan
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Soap_Dude
7/16/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
R. Srinivasan
7/16/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gerry Myerson
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Daryl McCullough
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
tez_h@nospam.yahoo.com
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gerry Myerson
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Lee Rudolph
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
George Greene
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
David Petry
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
George Greene
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Andrew Bettilyon
7/16/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
George Greene
7/17/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Andrew Bettilyon
7/16/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
bogus address
7/16/06
Read Alternative Trigonometry: [Was: Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?]
Patricia Shanahan
7/16/06
Read Re: Alternative Trigonometry: [Was: Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?]
Patricia Shanahan
7/17/06
Read Re: Alternative Trigonometry: [Was: Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?]
Andrew Bettilyon
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
George Greene
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gerry Myerson
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Ralf Bader
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/15/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/16/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/16/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Dave L. Renfro
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Dave L. Renfro
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Dave L. Renfro
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Virgil
7/20/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/24/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
George Greene
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
George Greene
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
George Greene
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Rupert
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should NW behave?
George Greene
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
T.H. Ray
7/12/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gonçalo Rodrigues
7/12/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/12/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
David Petry
7/12/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Richard Herring
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gerry Myerson
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gerry Myerson
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gerry Myerson
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Lee Rudolph
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
kunzmilan@atlas.cz
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
guenther.vonKnakspott@gmx.de
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Dr. David Kirkby
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
David C. Ullrich
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
David C. Ullrich
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Peter Webb
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
jirka@5z.com
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
guenther.vonKnakspott@gmx.de
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
guenther.vonKnakspott@gmx.de
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
David C. Ullrich
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Dave L. Renfro
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Brian Chandler
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Chas Brown
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
guenther.vonKnakspott@gmx.de
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Chas Brown
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Ben Rudiak-Gould
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
guenther.vonKnakspott@gmx.de
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
stephen@nomail.com
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Dave L. Renfro
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Chas Brown
7/13/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Hatto von Aquitanien
8/3/06
Read Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Anonymous

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