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Topic: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Replies: 778   Last Post: Aug 8, 2006 12:02 PM

 Messages: [ Previous | Next ]
 DontBother@nowhere.net Posts: 4,687 Registered: 7/13/06
Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Posted: Jul 22, 2006 3:00 PM

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 03:09:07 -0400, herbzet@cox.net wrote:

>
>
>Virgil wrote:

>>
>> In article <rao2c2dq73mt6pnljbpi5fojdl0g9gscp4@4ax.com>,
>> Lester Zick <DontBother@nowhere.net> wrote:

>> >
>> > On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 14:14:26 -0600, Virgil <virgil@comcast.net> wrote:

>> > >In article <6l72c2hqmtpm8444sc20l5q9g4r7smavuc@4ax.com>,
>> > >

>
>[...]
>

>> > >Truth of "If P then Q" need not require assuming the truth of "P".
>> >
>> > Never said it did. I just said the truth of any Q demonstrated of P
>> > requires the assumption of truth for P.

>>
>> But that only means that the truth of Q is conditional on the truth of
>> P, and does not require that P be true, unless one claims that Q is
>> unconditionally true.
>>

>> > Otherwise the truth of Q
>> > remains problematic. It's an old and ongoing problem in Aristotelian
>> > syllogistic inference: the truth of any conclusion is only supported
>> > by the truth of the premises involved.

>>
>> Precisely.

>> >
>> > >If P and Q are compound statements such that Q is false whenever P is
>> > >false, then "If P then Q" will be true regardless of the truth of P.

>> >
>> > Don't quite follow the logic here. The whole "If" conditional is an
>> > assumption of truth on the face of it.

>>
>> It is an assumption of relative truth, but not of any absolute truth.

>
>
>There is vast confusion in the use of the terms "relative truth",
>"absolute truth", "conditional truth", "unconditional truth",
>"trivially true", "vacuously true", "contingent truth",
>"necessary truth", and other locutions. It's an embarrassment.

I agree.

>I addressed the topic of the relation of truth to validity
>in my postings to sci.logic on June 22, 23, and 24 of this year.

But I don't think resolution of the problem depends on inventing a new
term to describe problematic truth.

>If the website is up the three posts can be read/downloaded at
> http://three.fsphost.com/herbzet/
>
>or you can fight thru them at google:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/pew9y

~v~~

Date Subject Author
7/12/06 Norman Wildberger
7/12/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/12/06 Peter Webb
7/12/06 lesterzick@cableone.net
7/12/06 Virgil
7/13/06 lesterzick@cableone.net
7/13/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/13/06 stephen@nomail.com
7/13/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 David C. Ullrich
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Peter Webb
7/15/06 David C. Ullrich
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/16/06 David C. Ullrich
7/16/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06 George Greene
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06 Dave L. Renfro
7/14/06 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/14/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 Virgil
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 Virgil
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/16/06 Virgil
7/16/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/17/06 Jack Markan
7/17/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Chas Brown
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Jack Markan
7/18/06 Jack Markan
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Jack Markan
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Jack Markan
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Jack Markan
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Chris Menzel
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Jack Markan
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Jack Markan
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/21/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Dr. David Kirkby
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/18/06 Richard Herring
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06 Gerry Myerson
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 Gerry Myerson
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 Lee Rudolph
7/13/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/13/06 Gerry Myerson
7/13/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/13/06 Mariano
7/13/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Mariano
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Mariano
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Rupert
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/20/06 Y. T.
7/20/06 Virgil
7/24/06 Y. T.
7/24/06 Virgil
7/22/06 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/24/06 Y. T.
7/24/06 Virgil
7/26/06 Y. T.
7/26/06 Virgil
7/30/06 Y. T.
7/26/06 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/30/06 Y. T.
7/18/06 Rupert
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Rupert
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/24/06 Rupert
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/27/06 Rupert
7/27/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/28/06 Rupert
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Rupert
7/30/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/30/06 Rupert
7/30/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/31/06 Rupert
7/31/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
8/4/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
8/4/06 Rupert
8/6/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
8/7/06 Rupert
8/8/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/28/06 Chris Menzel
7/28/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/30/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
8/1/06 Aatu Koskensilta
8/2/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/30/06 Ross Finlayson
8/1/06 Aatu Koskensilta
8/1/06 George Greene
7/29/06 Virgil
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Chris Menzel
7/29/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/29/06 Chris Menzel
7/30/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Daryl McCullough
7/14/06 Peter Webb
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/14/06 dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
7/14/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06 dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
7/14/06 Rupert
7/14/06 guenther.vonKnakspott@gmx.de
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Barb Knox
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Barb Knox
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Virgil
7/15/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/15/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/15/06 Dave Seaman
7/14/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/15/06 Virgil
7/15/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 Virgil
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 Virgil
7/15/06 Dr. David Kirkby
7/16/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/16/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Rupert
7/17/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/17/06 dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
7/17/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/14/06 R. Srinivasan
7/14/06 Kevin Karn
7/15/06 Dave L. Renfro
7/15/06 R. Srinivasan
7/15/06 Kevin Karn
7/15/06 R. Srinivasan
7/15/06 stephen@nomail.com
7/15/06 R. Srinivasan
7/15/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/15/06 Daryl McCullough
7/15/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/15/06 Peter Webb
7/15/06 R. Srinivasan
7/17/06 Kevin Karn
7/17/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/17/06 dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
7/17/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/17/06 dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 Chas Brown
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 Chas Brown
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/17/06 Virgil
7/17/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Virgil
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/17/06 Chas Brown
7/18/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Chas Brown
7/18/06 Gerry Myerson
7/19/06 Chas Brown
7/19/06 Gerry Myerson
7/19/06 Chas Brown
7/20/06 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/19/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/19/06 Chas Brown
7/20/06 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/20/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/20/06 Lee Rudolph
7/20/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/20/06 David Bernier
7/21/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/21/06 George Greene
7/18/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/17/06 Russell Easterly
7/17/06 jirka@5z.com
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 jirka@5z.com
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/17/06 Virgil
7/18/06 namducnguyen
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 namducnguyen
7/18/06 namducnguyen
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 namducnguyen
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/21/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 Jan Burse
7/24/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/18/06 Rupert
7/18/06 namducnguyen
7/19/06 Rupert
7/20/06 namducnguyen
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 namducnguyen
7/21/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/27/06 Rupert
7/27/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/28/06 Rupert
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Virgil
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Virgil
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7/30/06 Virgil
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7/30/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 namducnguyen
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7/19/06 Rupert
7/19/06 namducnguyen
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Rupert
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/21/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06 Virgil
7/21/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06 Virgil
7/22/06 herbzet@cox.net
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7/23/06 herbzet@cox.net
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7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
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7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
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7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
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7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
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7/24/06 Virgil
7/23/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/23/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/23/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 herbzet@cox.net
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7/24/06 herbzet@cox.net
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7/30/06 herbzet@cox.net
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7/24/06 Virgil
7/24/06 Virgil
7/23/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/22/06 herbzet@cox.net
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7/22/06 herbzet@cox.net
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7/21/06 namducnguyen
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7/21/06 Virgil
7/21/06 Dr. David Kirkby
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7/23/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/23/06 Dr. David Kirkby
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7/24/06 R. Srinivasan
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/23/06 jirka@5z.com
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/25/06 Gc
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7/25/06 Gc
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7/28/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06 Pierre Asselin
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7/26/06 Pierre Asselin
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7/26/06 Gc
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7/23/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/18/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 David Bernier
7/19/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/22/06 Keith Ramsay
7/22/06 David Bernier
7/22/06 Virgil
8/3/06 Rupert
7/17/06 Toni Lassila
7/14/06 Phil Carmody
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/20/06 Y. T.
7/13/06 Peter Webb
7/13/06 Gerry Myerson
7/13/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Kevin Karn
7/14/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/15/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/15/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/15/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/15/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/15/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/15/06 Barb Knox
7/15/06 Daryl McCullough
7/15/06 Peter Webb
7/15/06 Chas Brown
7/15/06 T.H. Ray
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 Lee Rudolph
7/17/06 James Dolan
7/14/06 Peter Webb
7/17/06 Rupert
7/13/06 Russell Easterly
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 stephen@nomail.com
7/13/06 Virgil
7/13/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06 lDontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 John Jones
7/15/06 Virgil
7/13/06 Kevin Karn
7/13/06 Russell Easterly
7/13/06 Kevin Karn
8/4/06 seand602
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7/13/06 Gerry Myerson
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 R. Srinivasan
7/13/06 lDontBother@nowhere.net
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7/13/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/14/06 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/14/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06 Virgil
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 Virgil
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 Virgil
7/16/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06 Peter Webb
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 Gerry Myerson
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06 R. Srinivasan
7/14/06 R. Srinivasan
7/14/06 Soap_Dude
7/16/06 R. Srinivasan
7/16/06 Gerry Myerson
7/17/06 Rupert
7/13/06 Daryl McCullough
7/13/06 tez_h@nospam.yahoo.com
7/13/06 Gerry Myerson
7/13/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06 Lee Rudolph
7/15/06 George Greene
7/15/06 David Petry
7/14/06 George Greene
7/15/06 Andrew Bettilyon
7/16/06 George Greene
7/17/06 Andrew Bettilyon
7/16/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/16/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/17/06 Andrew Bettilyon
7/13/06 George Greene
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 Gerry Myerson
7/13/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06 Virgil
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 Virgil
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/16/06 Virgil
7/16/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Rupert
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Dave L. Renfro
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/20/06 Dave L. Renfro
7/20/06 Dave L. Renfro
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Rupert
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06 George Greene
7/14/06 George Greene
7/14/06 George Greene
7/14/06 Rupert
7/14/06 George Greene
7/14/06 T.H. Ray
7/12/06 GonÃ§alo Rodrigues
7/12/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/12/06 David Petry
7/12/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 Richard Herring
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 Gerry Myerson
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06 Gerry Myerson
7/14/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06 Gerry Myerson
7/14/06 Lee Rudolph
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 kunzmilan@atlas.cz
7/13/06 guenther.vonKnakspott@gmx.de
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7/13/06 Dr. David Kirkby
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7/14/06 David C. Ullrich
7/14/06 David C. Ullrich
7/14/06 Peter Webb
7/14/06 jirka@5z.com
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06 guenther.vonKnakspott@gmx.de
7/13/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06 guenther.vonKnakspott@gmx.de
7/14/06 David C. Ullrich
7/13/06 Dave L. Renfro
7/13/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 Brian Chandler
7/13/06 Chas Brown
7/13/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
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7/14/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06 Chas Brown
7/14/06 Ben Rudiak-Gould
7/14/06 guenther.vonKnakspott@gmx.de
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 stephen@nomail.com
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Dave L. Renfro
7/14/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Chas Brown
7/13/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
8/3/06 Anonymous