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Topic: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Replies: 778   Last Post: Aug 8, 2006 12:02 PM

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 herbzet@cox.net Posts: 29 Registered: 7/3/06
Re: Set Theory: Should you believe?
Posted: Jul 24, 2006 9:35 PM
 Plain Text Reply

Lester Zick wrote:
>
>herbzet@cox.net wrote:

> >
> >Lester Zick wrote:

> >>

[...]

> >> Aha! But unbeknownst to you the brain really works this way
> >> mechanically. It works through tautological regression and not through
> >> syllogistic inference as is commonly supposed.

> >
> >
> >Thank you for the explanation, both here and above.

>
> Well I'm confident you're being ironic.

I'm being polite.

> But the fact is that
> tautological mechanics are exactly what underlies the whole cerebral
> process we describe in syllogistic terms. In any even I won't belabor
> the point with those convinced otherwise.

[...]

> >> >> In other words
> >> >> if Q is true (and it is) it isn't because it's a component of P.

> >> >
> >> >
> >> >You're right, even though Q is a component of P.

> >>
> >> Where do you see Q in P?

> >
> >
> >Don't you see it? Your previous sentence ("In other words if Q is
> >true..." etc.) is ambiguous in that regard.

>
> Well the fact is that I don't see it. I see how it might be inferred
> given collateral judgments. But I just don't see the actual Q you
> describe anywhere literally in P. That's been the focus of my problem
> with your contention all along.

Well, the terms "component" and "literally" are not rigorously defined,
AFAIK, so it's possible we don't disagree.

Take the two sentences

1) Jones smokes.
2) Jones smokes.

Obviously, (1) and (2) are distinct occurrences of the same sentence.
Are they "literally" the same? It could be argued that they differ,
at least in their placement on the page (or screen), and so are not
literally the same.

If we say that they _are_ literally the same, then in that sense Q
("Margaret Thatcher is a politician") does not literally occur
in P ("Margaret Thatcher is a man, and all men are politicians"),
nor does it occur in (if I may) P' = "Margaret Thatcher is a
male politician". If we take "is a component of" to mean
"occurs literally in" (in this sense) then Q is not a component
of P.

If, on the other hand, we take "is a component of" in a somewhat
looser sense, such as "is (logically) equivalent to a part (or
subformula) of" then it can be shown that Q is a component of
P and of P'.

E.g., "Margaret Thatcher is a male politician" is clearly
equivalent, logically, to "Margaret Thatcher is a man, and
Margaret Thatcher is a politician." In this formulation, Q
("Margaret Thatcher is a politician") is clearly a component,
in this last sense, to a part of a sentence that is logically
equivalent to P'.

--
hz

'Even the crows on the roofs caw about the nature of conditionals.'

-- Callimachus --

Date Subject Author
7/12/06 Norman Wildberger
7/12/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/12/06 Peter Webb
7/12/06 lesterzick@cableone.net
7/12/06 Virgil
7/13/06 lesterzick@cableone.net
7/13/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/13/06 stephen@nomail.com
7/13/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 David C. Ullrich
7/14/06 pomerado@hotmail.com
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Peter Webb
7/15/06 pomerado@hotmail.com
7/15/06 David C. Ullrich
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/16/06 David C. Ullrich
7/16/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06 George Greene
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/13/06 Dave L. Renfro
7/14/06 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/14/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 Virgil
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 Virgil
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/16/06 Virgil
7/16/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/17/06 Jack Markan
7/17/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Chas Brown
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Jack Markan
7/18/06 Jack Markan
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Jack Markan
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Jack Markan
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Jack Markan
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Chris Menzel
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Jack Markan
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Jack Markan
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/21/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Dr. David Kirkby
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/18/06 Richard Herring
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06 Gerry Myerson
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 Gerry Myerson
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 Lee Rudolph
7/13/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/13/06 Gerry Myerson
7/13/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/13/06 Mariano
7/13/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Mariano
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Mariano
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Rupert
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/20/06 Y. T.
7/20/06 Virgil
7/24/06 Y. T.
7/24/06 Virgil
7/22/06 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/24/06 Y. T.
7/24/06 Virgil
7/26/06 Y. T.
7/26/06 Virgil
7/30/06 Y. T.
7/26/06 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/30/06 Y. T.
7/18/06 Rupert
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Rupert
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/24/06 Rupert
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/27/06 Rupert
7/27/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/28/06 Rupert
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Rupert
7/30/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/30/06 Rupert
7/30/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/31/06 Rupert
7/31/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
8/4/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
8/4/06 Rupert
8/6/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
8/7/06 Rupert
8/8/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/28/06 Chris Menzel
7/28/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/30/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
8/1/06 Aatu Koskensilta
8/2/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/30/06 Ross Finlayson
8/1/06 Aatu Koskensilta
8/1/06 George Greene
7/29/06 Virgil
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Chris Menzel
7/29/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/29/06 Chris Menzel
7/30/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/13/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/13/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Daryl McCullough
7/14/06 Peter Webb
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/14/06 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/14/06 dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
7/14/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06 dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
7/14/06 Rupert
7/14/06 guenther.vonKnakspott@gmx.de
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Barb Knox
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Barb Knox
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Virgil
7/15/06 Gene Ward Smith
7/15/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/15/06 Dave Seaman
7/14/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/14/06 Hatto von Aquitanien
7/14/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/15/06 pomerado@hotmail.com
7/15/06 Virgil
7/15/06 Stephen Montgomery-Smith
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 Virgil
7/15/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/15/06 Virgil
7/15/06 Dr. David Kirkby
7/16/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/16/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Rupert
7/17/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/17/06 dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
7/17/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/14/06 R. Srinivasan
7/14/06 Kevin Karn
7/15/06 Dave L. Renfro
7/15/06 R. Srinivasan
7/15/06 Kevin Karn
7/15/06 R. Srinivasan
7/15/06 stephen@nomail.com
7/15/06 R. Srinivasan
7/15/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/15/06 Daryl McCullough
7/15/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/15/06 Peter Webb
7/15/06 R. Srinivasan
7/17/06 Kevin Karn
7/17/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/17/06 dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
7/17/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/17/06 dkfjdklj@yahoo.com
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 Chas Brown
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 Chas Brown
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/17/06 Virgil
7/17/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Virgil
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/17/06 Chas Brown
7/18/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Chas Brown
7/18/06 Gerry Myerson
7/19/06 Chas Brown
7/19/06 Gerry Myerson
7/19/06 Chas Brown
7/20/06 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/19/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/19/06 Chas Brown
7/20/06 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
7/20/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/20/06 Lee Rudolph
7/20/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/20/06 David Bernier
7/21/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/21/06 George Greene
7/18/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/17/06 Russell Easterly
7/17/06 jirka@5z.com
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 jirka@5z.com
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 Patricia Shanahan
7/17/06 malbrain@yahoo.com
7/17/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/17/06 Virgil
7/18/06 namducnguyen
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 namducnguyen
7/18/06 namducnguyen
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 namducnguyen
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/21/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 Jan Burse
7/24/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/18/06 Rupert
7/18/06 namducnguyen
7/19/06 Rupert
7/20/06 namducnguyen
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 namducnguyen
7/21/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/27/06 Rupert
7/27/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/28/06 Rupert
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Virgil
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Virgil
7/30/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/30/06 Virgil
7/30/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Rupert
7/30/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 namducnguyen
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/29/06 Rupert
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Rupert
7/19/06 namducnguyen
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Rupert
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/21/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06 Virgil
7/21/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06 Virgil
7/22/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/23/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/23/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/23/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/25/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/25/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/26/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/26/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/27/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/28/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/28/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/29/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/30/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/30/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/24/06 Virgil
7/23/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/22/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 herbzet@cox.net
7/20/06 Rupert
7/21/06 namducnguyen
7/21/06 Rupert
7/21/06 namducnguyen
7/22/06 Rupert
7/23/06 namducnguyen
7/24/06 Rupert
7/24/06 namducnguyen
7/24/06 Rupert
7/27/06 namducnguyen
7/27/06 Rupert
7/29/06 namducnguyen
7/29/06 Rupert
7/30/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/31/06 namducnguyen
7/21/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06 Virgil
7/21/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06 Virgil
7/21/06 Dr. David Kirkby
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/25/06 Rupert
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/21/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06 jirka@5z.com
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/23/06 jirka@5z.com
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/23/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/23/06 Dr. David Kirkby
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/23/06 Virgil
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/24/06 R. Srinivasan
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Virgil
7/23/06 jirka@5z.com
7/23/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/24/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/24/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/25/06 Gc
7/25/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06 Gc
7/25/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06 Gc
7/25/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06 Gc
7/25/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06 Gc
7/25/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06 Gc
7/25/06 Gc
7/25/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06 Gc
7/25/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06 Gc
7/25/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06 Gc
7/25/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06 Gc
7/25/06 Gc
7/25/06 Chris Menzel
7/25/06 Gc
7/26/06 Chris Menzel
7/26/06 Gc
7/28/06 George Greene
7/28/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06 Pierre Asselin
7/25/06 Dr. David Kirkby
7/26/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/26/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/26/06 Pierre Asselin
7/27/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/26/06 jirka@5z.com
7/26/06 Gc
7/24/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/24/06 jirka@5z.com
7/24/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/25/06 jirka@5z.com
7/25/06 Aatu Koskensilta
7/18/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/18/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/19/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/19/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/20/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/20/06 Virgil
7/21/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/21/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Virgil
7/22/06 DontBother@nowhere.net
7/22/06 Patricia Shanahan
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8/3/06 Anonymous

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