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Topic: Vast Underfunding
Replies: 207   Last Post: Jul 27, 2007 10:13 AM

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Kirby Urner

Posts: 4,713
Registered: 12/6/04
Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Posted: Feb 11, 2007 11:57 PM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

> Kirby Posted: Feb 11, 2007 8:34 PM
> >The other cliche is we vastly overfund the
> military,
>
> I see you are having more trouble than usual
> staying focused. The tenor of the conversation
> in this forum is sobering enough despite the fact
> that the participants are putatively experts in math
> education. I shudder to think what we might witness
> if the conversation strayed too far afield.


I'll read this as a warning that you're inexpert to
follow or something like that. But the "overfunded
military versus underfunded schools" is deeply engrained
in our culture, as any "when the Air Force needs a
bake sale" pin owner might attest.

http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&q=%22air+force%22+%22bake+sale%22

To bring up and decry the corruption in public schools,
while staying silent on military funding, is what I
thought you might do (plead ignorance). I find your
posture disingenuous, but that's nothing new.

> >My point: this culture of waste and fraudulent
> >billing for services not rendered, if allowed to
> >persist among our reputedly "most disciplined",
> >is not going to magically resolve in our civilian
> >sector either.

>
> We have been through this argument. In almost
> most every government service, from mental health
> services to collecting garbage, government has the
> choice to "make or buy". And in many cases, you will
> find one government (state or local) that decides to
> "make" (i.e., to provide the service itself) and
> another that decides to buy (i.e., contracts out the
> service).


Yes, and I'm suspicious when the Pentagon chooses to
contract out, rather than dig, its own graves.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070115/BUSINESS06/701150348/1019/BUSINESS

It's not appropriate (to repeat a phrase) to contract
out every function of government. That's called
"privatization of everything" and begs the question why
we need a government in the first place. But then, as
an apologist for the voucher vultures, I can see where
that argument doesn't wash with you. You're ready to
cannibalize and disperse.

> Thus, some municipalities have their own
> own sanitation departments that collect garbage,
> plough snow, etc., while other municipalities
> contract out for these services. Education is also


Your arguments along these lines were never in the least
convincing. We're talking about the education of little
children, on into young adulthood at the very least. Do
they learn about their rights and responsibilities in a
democracy or don't they? What's to keep some private
academy from ensuring they don't?

You think the education of young impressionables should
be contracted out to the lowest bidder. I think that's
a lazy-ass cop out way to go, for reasons I've also
stated in very clear terms (which you've so far avoided
grappling with, saying others are more adept at pushing
the vouchers solution than you are).

> like that. Many states have public universities (I
> wonder if any state does not), but governments also
> subsidize students going to private universities.


Or subsidizes principals going to conferences in
Argentina? Supplementing is different from gutting
completely.

> The two great exceptions to governmental "make or
> or buy" are the army and the police. By definition,


Is the army really an exception? Or the police?
Where have you been? Haven't you been following about
the privatization of both of these services?

> the "state" (sovereign political entity) keeps a
> monopoly on coercive force.
>


Hah, that's a laugh. Mercenaries R Us, if you ever read
your newspapers.

> But for police and army, which are hors de combat
> in this debate, it is widely understood that
> government agencies are famously inefficient. That
> is the reason many municipalities contract out their
> services and that is why there was a great wave of
> privatization under the Thatcher regime in the UK.
> Only governments, because they are insensitive to
> massive financial losses, could have operated the
> Concorde SST and for just that reason only
> governments can operate the public school, as that
> institution is currently constituted.


So we should put any talk of military funding out of
bounds, but it's OK for you to share your deep wisdom
about the SST program?

> So, the question I had put to you, some time ago,
> was whether you believe that the K12 public
> schools look more like the sanitation department or
> more like the U.S. Army? I.e., must each
> municipality provide its own education services or
> can they be contracted out?


More like the US Army when said Army is *not* contracting
away its responsibility to defend the American people,
such as by providing its own with a decent education,
which it does not, repeat, does not, currently do.

> You, Kirby, seem to think that the public school
> is like the U.S. Army. I.e., that its services


Yep. Our public education system is a first line of
defense against all those competing ideologies that have
no time or patience for democracy USA style.

> cannot be contracted out. You certainly may take
> that position, but you should know that it is
> anti-historical. Furthermore, I do not know of any
> compelling logic for your position.


I bet if you really think hard, you might just come up
with some reasoning. If not, go back and reread some of
my posts. You seem to think that we can just trash the
public system, and democracy will magically survive,
because it's in our blood or something. I can tell you,
without fear of contradiction by any biologist and/or
medical doctor: there's nothing in the blood that'll
ensure the USA's survival (it's been pushed close to the
disintegration point already, or maybe you hadn't noticed
the electoral process has suffered a huge loss of
credibility lately -- remember any stories along those
lines?).

> >I think thinking in terms of money, though commonly
> >done, is ass backwards. Start with curricula, judge
> >them on their merits (relatively and absolutely),
> >and then pointedly question why this or that is being
> >bleeped over.

>
> Oh, yeah! That's just how I buy a car. Hmmm,
> let's see what I really want: real leather
> upholstery, V12 engine, 640 HP, independent front and


What bad taste you have!

> rear double-wishbone suspension with anti-roll
> bars,...I am starting to get a little breathless.


You're a real pig, aren't ya?

> Well, let me cut to the chase: soon I will be
> driving a Lamborghini and soon you will be getting
> the bill. OK?
>
>
> Haim
> Je me souviens


I'm saying for the money we're already spending on
public education, we could be getting what's relatively
speaking a Lamborghini compared to the trashy lemon
they're selling us today. And the DoD is doing precious
little to defend us. Cuz it sold out a long time ago
too (except a few die hards maybe).

Kirby


Date Subject Author
7/27/07
Read Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/14/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Wayne Bishop
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/29/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/29/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Wayne Bishop
6/29/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/29/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
7/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/1/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/1/06
Read Haim (was Vast Underfunding)
Richard Strausz
10/1/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Joshua Zucker
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
10/30/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/15/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/15/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/15/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/16/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/16/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/16/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/16/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
1/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
1/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
11/24/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/24/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
11/25/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/25/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
11/25/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/15/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Janet Rose
12/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/18/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/18/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
12/18/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
12/19/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/19/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
12/25/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/26/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
12/27/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
12/27/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Greg Matheson
12/28/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
12/28/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/2/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/2/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Jim Wysocki
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
2/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/10/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
2/13/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Sedinger, Harry
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/13/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/13/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
3/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Greg Matheson
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/15/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/15/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/19/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/8/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/13/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/23/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
4/25/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
5/5/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/5/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Haim: Vast Lack of Honesty (was: Vast Underfunding)
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Re: Haim: Vast Lack of Honesty (was: Vast Underfunding)
Louis Talman
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Sedinger, Harry
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Bishop, Wayne
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Victor Steinbok
7/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
7/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
7/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/27/07
Read Re: Vast Underfunding
Bishop, Wayne
7/26/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
7/26/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg

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