> Kirby Posted: Feb 11, 2007 8:34 PM > >The other cliche is we vastly overfund the > military, > > I see you are having more trouble than usual > staying focused. The tenor of the conversation > in this forum is sobering enough despite the fact > that the participants are putatively experts in math > education. I shudder to think what we might witness > if the conversation strayed too far afield.
I'll read this as a warning that you're inexpert to follow or something like that. But the "overfunded military versus underfunded schools" is deeply engrained in our culture, as any "when the Air Force needs a bake sale" pin owner might attest.
To bring up and decry the corruption in public schools, while staying silent on military funding, is what I thought you might do (plead ignorance). I find your posture disingenuous, but that's nothing new.
> >My point: this culture of waste and fraudulent > >billing for services not rendered, if allowed to > >persist among our reputedly "most disciplined", > >is not going to magically resolve in our civilian > >sector either. > > We have been through this argument. In almost > most every government service, from mental health > services to collecting garbage, government has the > choice to "make or buy". And in many cases, you will > find one government (state or local) that decides to > "make" (i.e., to provide the service itself) and > another that decides to buy (i.e., contracts out the > service).
Yes, and I'm suspicious when the Pentagon chooses to contract out, rather than dig, its own graves.
It's not appropriate (to repeat a phrase) to contract out every function of government. That's called "privatization of everything" and begs the question why we need a government in the first place. But then, as an apologist for the voucher vultures, I can see where that argument doesn't wash with you. You're ready to cannibalize and disperse.
> Thus, some municipalities have their own > own sanitation departments that collect garbage, > plough snow, etc., while other municipalities > contract out for these services. Education is also
Your arguments along these lines were never in the least convincing. We're talking about the education of little children, on into young adulthood at the very least. Do they learn about their rights and responsibilities in a democracy or don't they? What's to keep some private academy from ensuring they don't?
You think the education of young impressionables should be contracted out to the lowest bidder. I think that's a lazy-ass cop out way to go, for reasons I've also stated in very clear terms (which you've so far avoided grappling with, saying others are more adept at pushing the vouchers solution than you are).
> like that. Many states have public universities (I > wonder if any state does not), but governments also > subsidize students going to private universities.
Or subsidizes principals going to conferences in Argentina? Supplementing is different from gutting completely.
> The two great exceptions to governmental "make or > or buy" are the army and the police. By definition,
Is the army really an exception? Or the police? Where have you been? Haven't you been following about the privatization of both of these services?
> the "state" (sovereign political entity) keeps a > monopoly on coercive force. >
Hah, that's a laugh. Mercenaries R Us, if you ever read your newspapers.
> But for police and army, which are hors de combat > in this debate, it is widely understood that > government agencies are famously inefficient. That > is the reason many municipalities contract out their > services and that is why there was a great wave of > privatization under the Thatcher regime in the UK. > Only governments, because they are insensitive to > massive financial losses, could have operated the > Concorde SST and for just that reason only > governments can operate the public school, as that > institution is currently constituted.
So we should put any talk of military funding out of bounds, but it's OK for you to share your deep wisdom about the SST program?
> So, the question I had put to you, some time ago, > was whether you believe that the K12 public > schools look more like the sanitation department or > more like the U.S. Army? I.e., must each > municipality provide its own education services or > can they be contracted out?
More like the US Army when said Army is *not* contracting away its responsibility to defend the American people, such as by providing its own with a decent education, which it does not, repeat, does not, currently do.
> You, Kirby, seem to think that the public school > is like the U.S. Army. I.e., that its services
Yep. Our public education system is a first line of defense against all those competing ideologies that have no time or patience for democracy USA style.
> cannot be contracted out. You certainly may take > that position, but you should know that it is > anti-historical. Furthermore, I do not know of any > compelling logic for your position.
I bet if you really think hard, you might just come up with some reasoning. If not, go back and reread some of my posts. You seem to think that we can just trash the public system, and democracy will magically survive, because it's in our blood or something. I can tell you, without fear of contradiction by any biologist and/or medical doctor: there's nothing in the blood that'll ensure the USA's survival (it's been pushed close to the disintegration point already, or maybe you hadn't noticed the electoral process has suffered a huge loss of credibility lately -- remember any stories along those lines?).
> >I think thinking in terms of money, though commonly > >done, is ass backwards. Start with curricula, judge > >them on their merits (relatively and absolutely), > >and then pointedly question why this or that is being > >bleeped over. > > Oh, yeah! That's just how I buy a car. Hmmm, > let's see what I really want: real leather > upholstery, V12 engine, 640 HP, independent front and
What bad taste you have!
> rear double-wishbone suspension with anti-roll > bars,...I am starting to get a little breathless.
You're a real pig, aren't ya?
> Well, let me cut to the chase: soon I will be > driving a Lamborghini and soon you will be getting > the bill. OK? > > > Haim > Je me souviens
I'm saying for the money we're already spending on public education, we could be getting what's relatively speaking a Lamborghini compared to the trashy lemon they're selling us today. And the DoD is doing precious little to defend us. Cuz it sold out a long time ago too (except a few die hards maybe).