The Math Forum



Search All of the Math Forum:

Views expressed in these public forums are not endorsed by NCTM or The Math Forum.


Math Forum » Discussions » Education » math-teach

Topic: Vast Underfunding
Replies: 207   Last Post: Jul 27, 2007 10:13 AM

Advanced Search

Back to Topic List Back to Topic List Jump to Tree View Jump to Tree View   Messages: [ Previous | Next ]
Kirby Urner

Posts: 4,713
Registered: 12/6/04
Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Posted: Apr 24, 2007 8:02 AM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

I'm a big believer in institutional wealth, like in the
military, where the toyz are way too expensive for any
one individual to own, let alone maintain, unless a
billionaire, and even then, a billionaire would make such
toyz company owned and subject to depreciation.

So whereas my teachers might not make a huge amount of
personal income on paper, some of the perks count for a
lot with them, such as access to Project Earthala, even
in these early stages, with very little on the ground to
show for much, yet.

At least they're in on the ground floor in a vibrantly
academic setting, where we train to provide overview and
provide big ideas to eager learners. We're expecting
more out of life than drudgery in a dreary factory-like
school building with students who don't really wanna be
there, and almost no video/audio editing equipment
(again, not the personal property of any one teacher or
student -- public property we call it, given the public
school context). Plus we've got a real night sky, given
the extreme remoteness, and telescopes, horses.

Now, don't and can't private schools have institutional
wealth as well? Of course they can and do. We've got
a new Islamic Academy going in nearby, like another of
the Catholics, in terms of having a private preserve,
free from much state interference.

And how much are those teachers paid? Given I'm not a
taxpayer into any officially Islamic state, unless we
count sales tax during times when I travel, I guess the
short answer is "not really my business" -- but I
imagine an adequate amount, like at Catlin Gabel or OES
or any other of our exclusive private schools in the
area.

Do you pick on them equally Haim, the private school
employees, the company town principals? Or is it only
public teachers and administrators who earn your ire?

Is it because you're a taxpayer that you feel it's your
business to be critical. What if only 10% of the
students attend thanks to voucher support, the rest
paying full fare? Would you keep your mouth 90% shut
about the private business of this corporate franchise
or whatever for-profit outfit, perhaps with stock traded
by Wall Street investors (unless you were one of those
investors -- with what leverage though, what're your
bylaws I wonder? Any democracy in this picture? By
law or by whim? Plus what's your on-paper mission
statement? To make money for the shareholders? That's
a sound basis for a school in your book? (all these
questions must be answered in detail by any voucher
proponent with plans to be taken seriously I would
hope)).

And if we do your vouchers thing, and bend the IRS into
a collection agency for individual parents, so they
might go shopping for private educations with the
USA's interal revenue, perhaps so their children might
learn how secular democracy and 200 years of history is
a worthless waste of time in the eyes of God, or worse,
a sin, or some other such BS? Or that Islam is somehow
inferior to Christianity or Judaism, or other religions
we might mention? And all on the public dime in your
bigot-ridden utopia no? Sound like heaven?

That'd be just hunky dory with you yes? To let the USA
simply turn over ideology and propaganda to whatever
immigrant groups happen to live here and want private
madrasas, yeshivas or gazeebos for their kids -- at
whatever rate of pay for said teachers, and at whatever
cost the voucher vultures deem necessary in terms of
taxes. Nevermind the USA actually stands for something,
and uses its public institutions to defend and
perpetuate those values. That's neither here nor there
right? At least you manage to never admit that the
curriculum actually matters.

You say to privatize schooling is like privatizing
garbage collection or package delivery -- highly
indicative of how much you value what's between a
person's ears, when it comes to their ability to
promote secular democratic values in a world often
hostile to such notions.

You don't really believe there *is* such a thing as a
secular democracy needing to protect itself against
its opponents and underminers, do you Haim? You think
that stuff'll just automatically sort itself out, even
as you imagine certain sects getting excluded from the
voucher system because... again, you fall on your face,
mumble incoherently about various target ethnicities
you'd rather not mix with, or have your offspring mix
with.

All that being said, I already said "Amen" when you
wanted me to, admitting to ugly corruption and
incompetence among the rank and file in various public
institutions (not just the public schools, not by a long
shot).[*] There're bad apples in the military too, or
simply lots of folks promoted to a higher rank than
their true level of competence. Absolutely there're
management challenges. Like you said, the task is huge,
the army vast.

Of course there're breakdowns, and public vigilance
should be welcomed. Parents with pitchforks have a
vital role to play in our democracy. I'm *glad* MC/HOLD
is on stage -- as one player among many though, as we've
got our own brand of agit prop going with the parents,
are not taking our marching orders from Bishop or Becker
(both peddlers of tree killer big dummy textbooks of an
antediluvian flavor).

One partial solution to the mess is to charter a lot of
new public schools that offer a trully different
approach to some of the perennial problems -- or in some
cases simply reimplement old approaches with proven
track records (for some, maybe a same-sex school is
what's needed).

Charters are social contracts of a kind, and there's
room for creativity in their open source coding. This
is where state legislatures *do* have a role, even if
the curriculum content itself is best prepared within
our institutions of higher learning (which may include
small engineering and architectural firms, think tanks,
nonprofits, teaching hospitals -- not just in sprawling
universities like USC or SUNY, Oregon's systems).

Legislators write templates, blueprints, like class
definitions in the OO paradigm. Individual schools
are the instances of those templates (this is where that
early math education with Python starts to pay off, now
that you're a responsible law maker).

Maybe some charters'll adopt Katrina Math for example,
which includes free adult education for the parents,
with lots of emphasis on practical entrepreneurship.

Katrina Math is a subtype of Gnu Math if you've been
reading my take on it. Lots of free and open source
computer labs sprouting up around New Orleans, connected
to the real world by a shared challenge: how to get the
USA up to speed, when it comes to responding to future
natural disasters on a trully competent scale. Sounds
like a worthy goal for any public system to work towards.

We're glad to be of service, even if the Silicon Forest
is geographically far away.

Kirby

(*) http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=5521373&tstart=0


Date Subject Author
7/27/07
Read Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/14/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Wayne Bishop
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/29/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/29/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Wayne Bishop
6/29/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/29/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
7/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/1/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/1/06
Read Haim (was Vast Underfunding)
Richard Strausz
10/1/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Joshua Zucker
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
10/30/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/15/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/15/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/15/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/16/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/16/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/16/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/16/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
1/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
1/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
11/24/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/24/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
11/25/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/25/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
11/25/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/15/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Janet Rose
12/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/18/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/18/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
12/18/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
12/19/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/19/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
12/25/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/26/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
12/27/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
12/27/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Greg Matheson
12/28/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
12/28/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/2/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/2/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Jim Wysocki
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
2/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/10/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
2/13/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Sedinger, Harry
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/13/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/13/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
3/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Greg Matheson
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/15/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/15/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/19/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/8/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/13/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/23/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
4/25/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
5/5/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/5/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Haim: Vast Lack of Honesty (was: Vast Underfunding)
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Re: Haim: Vast Lack of Honesty (was: Vast Underfunding)
Louis Talman
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Sedinger, Harry
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Bishop, Wayne
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Victor Steinbok
7/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
7/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
7/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/27/07
Read Re: Vast Underfunding
Bishop, Wayne
7/26/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
7/26/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg

Point your RSS reader here for a feed of the latest messages in this topic.

[Privacy Policy] [Terms of Use]

© The Math Forum at NCTM 1994-2017. All Rights Reserved.