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Topic: Vast Underfunding
Replies: 207   Last Post: Jul 27, 2007 10:13 AM

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Michael Paul Goldenberg

Posts: 7,041
From: Ann Arbor, MI
Registered: 12/3/04
Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Posted: Jul 11, 2007 6:17 PM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

And yet more things sat on for 72 hours+:

I've rarely seen a more logically twisted argument.

Simple explanation for the decline in union membership is NOT that
"workers are leaving unions" but that union jobs are being eliminated
by businesses and government wherever and whenever possible. You
don't have to be pro-union to recall and see the results both short-
and long-term of the Reagan busting of the air traffic controllers
union, which didn't result in an INCREASE in union memberships, did
it? Multiply that by factories with union workers leaving for states
and countries where they can operate sans unions. To suggest, even
hint, that somehow workers are "leaving" unions as if they were
choosing to do so because of some dissatisfaction with unions is
about as cynical as it gets.

And then to jump back to teachers' unions to suggest that, ipso
facto, they must be pushing for smaller class size to increase their
membership is a remarkable leap of logic. You could have simply made
that argument without all the crap about what's going on in the rest
of the labor movement, but then you wouldn't be able to get the name
"Hoffa" in quite so slickly.

So anyway, the theory you're pushing is that unions want to do
anything possible to increase membership, necessary or not. But then
there's the interesting case of the Dennis Bila, former head of both
the teacher's union AND the mathematics department at Washtenaw
Community College. Interestingly, the math department there used to
be able to teach section upon section of "self-paced" math courses
(mostly below the level of algebra II) in which multiple sections of
students were "serviced" by one instructor who got to sit in the math
lab awaiting students to take little multiple choice exams (handed
out and scored by lab assistants who got paid about $10/hr) and then
come to them for some help. The president of the college decided
about four years ago that this was not serving students well and
pushed, against union resistance, to eliminate most or all of these
self-paced classes and require that every section be classroom and
teacher based. So we have an administrator pushing for a more
expensive kind of instruction that might well, in the long haul,
increase union membership, not to mention faculty membership in the
math department, and a department and union head opposing the move.

It's a fascinating world, if you don't limit yourself to what Ed
David tells us. Note that I do not attempt to interpret anyone's
motives above. And I actually don't know how it all worked out. I
left the campus when this was all threatening to come to an
interesting head. I do know that Bila is retired and the same fellow
is still president.


On Jul 6, 2007, at 9:15 PM, Edmond David wrote:

> Victor Posted: Jul 6, 2007 10:28 AM
>> Seeing a nefarious union conspiracy behind every policy
>> decision ought to land one on a therapy couch at least
>> a couple of times a week. Medication may also be
>> advisable.

>
>> From the Bureau of Labor Statistics
> http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm
>
> Technical information: (202) 691-6378 USDL 07-0113
> http://www.bls.gov/cps/
> For release: 10:00 A.M. EST Thursday, January 25, 2007
>
> UNION MEMBERS IN 2006
>
> In 2006, 12.0 percent of employed wage and salary workers were
> union members, down from 12.5 percent a year earlier, the U.S.
> Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today.
> The number of persons belonging to a union fell by 326,000 in 2006
> to 15.4 million. The union membership rate has steadily declined
> from 20.1 percent in 1983, the first year for which comparable
> union data are available.
>
> ==> NB: these numbers are for all wage and salary
> ==> workers, including public sector workers. In the
> ==> private sector, the numbers for the unions are even
> ==> grimmer ( < 10%, I think).
>
> http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=2324
> Given the rate at which workers have been leaving unions, the labor
> movement will have to add nearly 700,000 members per year just to
> maintain its current levels of employee representation.
> ----------------
>
> Victor, do you think the unions don't know this? Do you imagine
> this fact does not factor into their every calculation? Do you
> think this little vignette is not on their minds every waking hour
> of every day?
>
> They think of almost nothing else.
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11958-2005Mar6.html

>> "These are the darkest days that I have ever seen for
>> American workers across the United States," said
>> McEntee, one of Sweeney's strongest allies.
>> ...
>> Hoffa, Stern and Wilhelm countered that labor must
>> build up its membership through organizing drives
>> before it can effectively flex its political muscle.

>
> And so on and so forth. You can google "labor movement
> declining membership" to see all you need on the subject.
>
> In other words, maybe it has not occurred to you, but there is
> not a snowball's chance in Hell that the AFT and NEA are
> insensitive to or unaware of what smaller class size will mean to
> their membership.
>
> Haim
> Je me souviens
>
>



Date Subject Author
7/27/07
Read Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/13/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/14/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
6/21/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Wayne Bishop
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/22/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
6/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/29/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/29/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Wayne Bishop
6/29/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
6/29/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
7/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/1/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/1/06
Read Haim (was Vast Underfunding)
Richard Strausz
10/1/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Joshua Zucker
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
10/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
10/30/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/15/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/15/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/15/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/16/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/16/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/16/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/16/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
1/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
1/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
11/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/23/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
11/24/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/24/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
11/25/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
11/25/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
11/25/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/6/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/15/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Janet Rose
12/17/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/18/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/18/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
12/18/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
12/19/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/19/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
12/25/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
12/26/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
12/27/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
12/27/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Greg Matheson
12/28/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
12/28/06
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/2/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/2/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
2/3/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Jim Wysocki
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/4/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
2/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/10/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
2/13/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Sedinger, Harry
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
2/12/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
2/13/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
2/13/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
3/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Greg Matheson
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/14/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/15/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/15/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
3/19/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/8/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/13/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/23/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
4/25/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
4/24/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
5/5/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/5/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Louis Talman
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Haim: Vast Lack of Honesty (was: Vast Underfunding)
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/7/07
Read Re: Haim: Vast Lack of Honesty (was: Vast Underfunding)
Louis Talman
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Sedinger, Harry
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Bishop, Wayne
5/9/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
6/16/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Victor Steinbok
7/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
7/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Kirby Urner
7/7/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/27/07
Read Re: Vast Underfunding
Bishop, Wayne
7/26/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Richard Strausz
7/26/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/6/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Haim
7/11/07
Read Re: MPG: Vast Underfunding
Michael Paul Goldenberg

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