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Topic: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Replies: 441   Last Post: Feb 5, 2013 6:25 AM

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Virgil

Posts: 311
Registered: 5/26/09
Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Posted: May 28, 2009 2:58 PM
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In article
<ee23e72e-206f-48c9-ac34-ad7b2046f299@c9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
WM <mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de> wrote:

> On 27 Mai, 23:15, Virgil <virg...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>

> > > > > Of course there can be different models for N and there can be
> > > > > different names for the elements of N. But that does not matter. The
> > > > > natural numbers do not enter mathematics because someone "defines"
> > > > > them, names them, or makes models of them, but because the natural
> > > > > numbers are simply existing and mathematics is built upon them.

> >
> > > > But according to WM, no such thing as N can exist.
> > > > So WM wold throw out the naturals on which so much is built.

> >
> > > The question is not whether the complete set of all naturals exists.
> >
> > That is a question on which WM differs from the mainstream.
> > But WM cannot grant its existence in a given argument and then deny it
> > in the same argument and expect anyone to accept that sort of  argument.

>
> Grant the existence of two natural numbers m and n such that m/n = sqrt
> (2). Then falsify it.
> Grant the existence of a largest natural. Then falsify it.
> Grant the existence of a largest prime number. Then falsify it.
> Grant the existence of all natural numbers. Then falsify it.
>
> All these proofs are proofs by contradiction.


I have never seen a logically correct or complete falsification of the
existence of all naturals.

Note that an argument against the existence of numerals (names) for all
naturals does not suffice.
> >
> > > That question alrady is nearly as ridiculous as any affirmative
> > > answer.

> >
> > Wrong!

>
> I said "nearly"! This is a fuzzy quantification, not a sharp one. It
> cannot be wrong. One might qualify it as nearly wrong or nearly right,
> at most.


All of WM's logic is fuzzy, much to fuzzy for serious mathematics.
> >
> >
> >

> > > The question is whether we could inform someone who does not yet know,
> > > what we understand by the sequence of natural numbers.

> >
> > Children know from a very early age. Whom does WM think is left to
> > inform?

>
> How do children get to know what the real numbers are? Do they have
> Peano's axioms in their genes or in their strollers?


Quite possible in their genes.
> >
> > But non-static sets do not exist in any mathematical set theory.

>
> That is orthodox nonsense.


Then produce an example of a mathematical set theory is which there are
non-static sets.


> The natural numbers as a potetntially
> infinite set exist in every mathematical theory before BC (before
> Cantor) and in many mathematical theories AC, for instance in every
> theory that is taught in elementary schools as well as in universities
> outside the departments of "logics" and mathematics.


Balls! Set theories as taught in elementary schools almost all require a
fixed universal set in which all other sets are fixed proper subsets, a
la Venn diagrams. And this approach even carries over into some
introductory math classes in universities.

Certainly I have never seen such variable sets anywhere in either
England or the United states at any level from kindergarten through
postgraduate.
>
> Regards, WM


--
Virgil


Date Subject Author
5/27/09
Read Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
Read Answer to Tim Little, I. Walker et al.
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Tim Little, I. Walker et al.
Virgil
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Tim Little, I. Walker et al.
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Tim Little, I. Walker et al.
Virgil
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/28/09
Read Re: Answer to Tim Little, I. Walker et al.
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
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Virgil
5/28/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
5/28/09
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G. Frege
5/28/09
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Jesse F. Hughes
5/29/09
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Dik T. Winter
5/29/09
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G. Frege
5/29/09
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Dik T. Winter
5/30/09
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G. Frege
5/30/09
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Jesse F. Hughes
6/2/09
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Dik T. Winter
5/30/09
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Jesse F. Hughes
5/30/09
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Ralf Bader
6/1/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/1/09
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Jesse F. Hughes
6/1/09
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Virgil
6/2/09
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george
6/2/09
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Denis Feldmann
6/2/09
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Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
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Virgil
6/11/09
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William Hughes
6/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
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Virgil
6/11/09
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William Hughes
6/11/09
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Guest
6/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
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Virgil
6/11/09
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William Hughes
6/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
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Virgil
6/12/09
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William Hughes
6/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
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Virgil
6/12/09
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William Hughes
6/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
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Virgil
6/12/09
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William Hughes
6/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
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Virgil
6/12/09
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William Hughes
6/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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Virgil
6/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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Virgil
6/12/09
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William Hughes
6/13/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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6/13/09
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6/13/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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6/13/09
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William Hughes
6/13/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/13/09
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Virgil
6/13/09
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William Hughes
6/13/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/13/09
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Virgil
6/13/09
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William Hughes
6/13/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/13/09
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Virgil
6/13/09
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William Hughes
6/13/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/13/09
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Virgil
6/14/09
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Owen Jacobson
6/14/09
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Virgil
6/13/09
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6/13/09
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6/13/09
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6/13/09
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William Hughes
6/13/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/13/09
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Virgil
6/13/09
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William Hughes
6/14/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/14/09
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Virgil
6/14/09
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William Hughes
6/14/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/14/09
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Virgil
6/14/09
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William Hughes
6/14/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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Virgil
6/14/09
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William Hughes
6/14/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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Virgil
6/14/09
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6/14/09
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Virgil
6/14/09
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6/14/09
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6/14/09
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6/15/09
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6/15/09
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6/15/09
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6/15/09
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6/15/09
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6/15/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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6/15/09
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6/15/09
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6/16/09
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6/16/09
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2/5/13
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6/16/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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7/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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6/17/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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William Hughes
6/18/09
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6/18/09
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6/18/09
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6/18/09
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6/18/09
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6/18/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/09
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6/19/09
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William Hughes
6/19/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/09
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6/19/09
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William Hughes
6/20/09
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6/20/09
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6/20/09
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6/20/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/20/09
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6/20/09
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6/20/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/20/09
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6/20/09
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6/20/09
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6/20/09
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6/20/09
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6/20/09
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6/2/09
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6/2/09
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6/3/09
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6/3/09
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6/3/09
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6/3/09
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6/3/09
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6/3/09
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6/3/09
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6/7/09
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6/10/09
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6/11/09
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Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/22/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
MeAmI.org
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Aatu Koskensilta
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Daryl McCullough
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/4/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Aatu Koskensilta
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jesse F. Hughes
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Ralf Bader
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/8/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/8/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/9/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/9/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/9/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
William Hughes
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
William Hughes
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
YBM
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/22/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
george
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/28/09
Read Who introduced false logic?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Ralf Bader
5/27/09
Read Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
David C. Ullrich
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Guest
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
David Bernier
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Jack Markan
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/3/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
2/5/13
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
MeAmI.org
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/18/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/20/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
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