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Topic: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Replies: 441   Last Post: Feb 5, 2013 6:25 AM

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Peter Webb

Posts: 945
Registered: 12/6/04
Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Posted: May 29, 2009 12:44 AM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply


"WM" <mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de> wrote in message
news:ee23e72e-206f-48c9-ac34-ad7b2046f299@c9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On 27 Mai, 23:15, Virgil <virg...@nowhere.com> wrote:

> > > > Of course there can be different models for N and there can be
> > > > different names for the elements of N. But that does not matter. The
> > > > natural numbers do not enter mathematics because someone "defines"
> > > > them, names them, or makes models of them, but because the natural
> > > > numbers are simply existing and mathematics is built upon them.

>
> > > But according to WM, no such thing as N can exist.
> > > So WM wold throw out the naturals on which so much is built.

>
> > The question is not whether the complete set of all naturals exists.
>
> That is a question on which WM differs from the mainstream.
> But WM cannot grant its existence in a given argument and then deny it
> in the same argument and expect anyone to accept that sort of argument.


Grant the existence of two natural numbers m and n such that m/n = sqrt
(2). Then falsify it.
Grant the existence of a largest natural. Then falsify it.
Grant the existence of a largest prime number. Then falsify it.
Grant the existence of all natural numbers. Then falsify it.

All these proofs are proofs by contradiction.

*************************

How do you falsify the existence of the set of all Natural numbers in ZF ?
ZF includes an axiom of infinity, which pretty much directly guarantees that
there is an infinite set of all finite ordinals. Assuming ZF is consistent,
this is also known to be independent of the other ZF axioms. So unless you
are arguing that ZF is inconsistent, I think you are going to have a lot of
problems showing that there cannot be a set of all natural numbers.






Date Subject Author
5/27/09
Read Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
Read Answer to Tim Little, I. Walker et al.
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Tim Little, I. Walker et al.
Virgil
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Tim Little, I. Walker et al.
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Tim Little, I. Walker et al.
Virgil
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/28/09
Read Re: Answer to Tim Little, I. Walker et al.
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Answer to Tim Little, I. Walker et al.
Virgil
5/28/09
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Dik T. Winter
5/28/09
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G. Frege
5/28/09
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Jesse F. Hughes
5/29/09
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Dik T. Winter
5/29/09
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G. Frege
5/29/09
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Dik T. Winter
5/30/09
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G. Frege
5/30/09
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Jesse F. Hughes
6/2/09
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Dik T. Winter
5/30/09
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Jesse F. Hughes
5/30/09
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Ralf Bader
6/1/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/1/09
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Jesse F. Hughes
6/1/09
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Virgil
6/2/09
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george
6/2/09
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Denis Feldmann
6/2/09
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Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
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Virgil
6/11/09
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William Hughes
6/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
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Virgil
6/11/09
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William Hughes
6/11/09
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Guest
6/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
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Virgil
6/11/09
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William Hughes
6/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
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Virgil
6/12/09
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William Hughes
6/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
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Virgil
6/12/09
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William Hughes
6/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
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Virgil
6/12/09
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William Hughes
6/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
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Virgil
6/12/09
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William Hughes
6/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
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Virgil
6/12/09
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6/12/09
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6/12/09
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6/13/09
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6/13/09
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6/13/09
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6/13/09
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6/13/09
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6/13/09
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6/13/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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6/13/09
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6/13/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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Virgil
6/13/09
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6/14/09
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6/13/09
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6/13/09
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6/13/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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Virgil
6/13/09
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6/14/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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Virgil
6/14/09
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6/14/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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6/14/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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6/14/09
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6/14/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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6/14/09
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6/14/09
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6/15/09
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6/15/09
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6/15/09
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6/16/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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7/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/17/09
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6/18/09
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6/18/09
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6/18/09
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6/18/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/19/09
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6/20/09
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6/20/09
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6/20/09
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6/20/09
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6/20/09
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6/20/09
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6/3/09
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6/3/09
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Virgil
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Aatu Koskensilta
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Daryl McCullough
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/4/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Aatu Koskensilta
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jesse F. Hughes
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Ralf Bader
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/8/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/8/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/9/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/9/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/9/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
William Hughes
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
William Hughes
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
YBM
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/22/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
george
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/28/09
Read Who introduced false logic?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Ralf Bader
5/27/09
Read Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
David C. Ullrich
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Guest
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
David Bernier
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Jack Markan
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/3/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
2/5/13
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
MeAmI.org
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/18/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/20/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
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