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Topic: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Replies: 441   Last Post: Feb 5, 2013 6:25 AM

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Owen Jacobson

Posts: 133
Registered: 5/23/08
Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Posted: Jun 12, 2009 12:38 AM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

On 2009-06-11 16:49:49 -0400, WM <mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de> said:

> On 11 Jun., 22:31, Virgil <virg...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> In article
>> <1348b29b-3f39-40a7-be0e-5bd24a4e3...@s21g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>>  WM <mueck...@rz.fh-augsburg.de> wrote:
>>

>>> I need no axioms.
>>
>> Then there is absolutely nothing that you take to be true?
>>
>> There are absolutely no truths from which you can deduce other things?

>
> There are truths, like 1 + 1 = 2, or, for linear sets, ExAy <==> AyEx


These "truths" are the axioms of the theory you're using, or are
implied by them.

> Incorrect are such lies as the axiom of infinity or the axiom of
> choice.


The mathematics community mostly does not pursue a universally true set
of axioms. Instead, mathematics takes sets of axioms and attempts to
demonstrate that they lead to interesting results. The results derived
from a given theory (a set of axioms) are only valid within that
theory. There are informal "families" of theories, within which the
informal definitions of various terms are portable (for example, there
is a family of "set theories," each of which has a loosely similar
definition of what a "set" is), but informal similarity does not mean
that proofs from theories in the same "family" can necessarily be used
together.

ZF set theory is no more "true" or "false" than it is "blue" or
"grape-flavoured" ? it is only a set of axioms, from which results that
are, most of the time, consistent with intuition can be derived. It
also implies some results that are less intuitive, like the existence
of more than one size of infinite set. There are other theories which
imply that there are no infinite sets at all. Both are useful; neither
is more right than the other, and the existence of infinite sets in ZF
is not "inconsistent" (in the technical sense of the word) with the
non-existence of infinite sets in another theory.

The pursuit of a single "true" set of axioms is at best an exercise in
philosophy, not mathematics, and at worst a grave misunderstanding of
how math works. Fortunately, you are not alone in this search; there
are others posting to sci.math who believe that there is a "true
mathematics."

>> That makes for a very simple mathematics in which nothing need be true.
>>
>> Consider axioms like in the American Declaration of Independence:
>>
>>    "We hold these truths to be self evident..."
>>
>> Unless WM can list the things he "holds to be self evident", he does not
>> have anything to build on.

>
> There is no necessity to list them in mathematics. Every sober mind
> knows them.


If that were true, this thread would've ended years ago.

You really do have to get your head around the idea that the people
you're talking to aren't idiots, don't have any personal animosity
towards you or your ideas, aren't yanking your chain (much), and quite
honestly don't share your intuition. The repeated requests by some
posters that you break your claims down into very small, easily
digested pieces are not attempts to waste your time, but rather
(mostly) honest attempts to understand the rules of the intellectual
framework you're using to make your pronouncements.

Mathematicians, by long and painful experience, generally distrust
"intuitive" truths. The parallel postulate is intuitively true, but its
contradiction is not only mathematically consistent but extremely
useful: geometries without the parallel postulate are used to model the
way light and matter interact. Similarly, it was once intuitively true
that all numbers could be expressed as the ratio between two whole
numbers, but the contradiction of that axiom is (again) both
mathematically consistent and useful.

So it is with the idea that all sets are finite. The ZF axiom of
infinity is only the contradiction of the axiom "there are no infinite
sets," and the resulting theory is both consistent and useful. There
are also consistent, useful theories that do not prove or require the
existence infinite sets.

If you would only name the theory you're using, or sketch out its
fundamental truths (that is, its axioms), you'd probably find people a
lot more receptive to your ideas.

-o



Date Subject Author
5/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
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Dik T. Winter
5/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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Virgil
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Virgil
5/28/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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6/1/09
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6/2/09
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6/18/09
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6/18/09
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6/19/09
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Virgil
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/22/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
MeAmI.org
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Aatu Koskensilta
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Daryl McCullough
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/4/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Aatu Koskensilta
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jesse F. Hughes
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Ralf Bader
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/8/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/8/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/9/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/9/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/9/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
William Hughes
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
William Hughes
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
YBM
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/22/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
george
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/28/09
Read Who introduced false logic?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Ralf Bader
5/27/09
Read Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
David C. Ullrich
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Guest
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
David Bernier
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Jack Markan
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/3/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
2/5/13
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
MeAmI.org
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/18/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/20/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
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