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Topic: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Replies: 441   Last Post: Feb 5, 2013 6:25 AM

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Owen Jacobson

Posts: 133
Registered: 5/23/08
Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Posted: Jun 15, 2009 12:09 PM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

On 2009-06-14 14:41:40 -0400, WM <mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de> said:

> On 14 Jun., 17:31, Owen Jacobson <angrybald...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2009-06-13 14:29:05 -0400, WM <mueck...@rz.fh-augsburg.de> said:
>>

>>> We agree that in Cantor's diagonal argument, applied to real numbers,
>>> the numbers are represented and identified solely by their digits. No
>>> further information is available.

>>
>>> We assume that a real number p can be distinguished from a set Q of
>>> real numbers q by general considerations, for instance, if p is a
>>> transcendental number and Q consists of rational numbers q only.

>>
>>> Of course it would be impossible to distinguish p from all q, because
>>> for every digit d_n of p, there is a number q that shares all digits
>>> up to d_n with p.

>>
>> Wait, so you're arguing that you can't distinguish 1/pi (roughly
>> 0.31830988...) from a set containing all rationals in [0, 1] because,
>> for example, 3/10 is equal to 1/pi to the first decimal place, 31/100
>> is equal to the second, and so on? What about the non-zero difference
>> between any one rational number and 1/pi?
>>
>> |1/pi - 3/10| is greater than the rational 1/50. |1/pi - 31/100| is
>> greater than the rational 1/125.  In fact, for each rational q in [0,
>> 1], 1/pi differs from q by an amount greater than some other rational r
>> in [0, 1], so we can distinguish 1/pi from every rational in [0, 1].

>
> If 1/pi exists as an actually infinite digit sequence.


Since there is a function g from N to {0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9}
that, for *every* element n of N, produces the n'th decimal place of
1/pi, it's safe to say that 1/pi has an infinite decimal
representation. There's also a function g' from N to {0, 1} that
produces, for *every* element n of N, the n'th bit of the binary
representation of 1/pi.

> There are two statements:
> 1) Path p can be distinguished from every path of the countable set P
> that is used to construct the tree.
> 2) Path p cannot be distinguished from every path of P.


Reading upstream a bit, I think you've misapprehended the point people
are making. If P is a set of paths, and the union of all elements of P
is the maximal complete binary tree, then there can be paths in the
union of all elements of P that are not in P. If P is a countable set,
then there are necessarily paths in the union of all elements of P that
are not in P.

In fact, one such set P is the set of finite rooted paths, which is
isomorphic to the set of nodes in the maximal complete binary tree.
We'll adopt a notation where each node is labelled with the set of left
(denoted as 0) and right (denoted as 1) branchings necessary to reach
it, prefixed by a dot (.):

. is the root node.
.0 is the left child of the root node.
.1 is the right child of the root node.
.00 is the left child of the left child of the root node.
.01 is the right child of the left child of the root node.
.10 is the left child of the right child of the root node.
.11 is the right chind of the right child of the root node.
(And so on.)

Because every node can be reached in only finitely many branchings (as
a consequence of the tree being representable as an infinite set of
finite paths), every node has a finite label.

We'll denote paths in the standard way, as sets of nodes:

{., .0} is the path from the root to the leftmost rank 1 node.
{., .0, .01} is the path from the root to the right-hand child of the
left-hand child of the root node.

Finite rooted paths can also be identified, for convenience, by their
terminal node: there is one and only one path from the root node to the
node .001101, so writing out the complete path is pointless. However,
*infinite* paths do not have a terminal node, so they must be described
in some other way - for example, by a function from N to the nodes of
the tree.

A path exists in the tree if and only if (every node on that path is in
the tree) and (the path is a connected, linear subgraph of the tree).
Two paths A and B are equal if and only if the set of nodes in path A
is equal to the set of nodes on path B.

There is a function f from N to the set of nodes that, for every
natural number n, produces the node labelled by the first n binary
places of 1/pi's binary expansion. This function describes a path. This
path is distinct from every path in the set of finite paths used to
describe the tree, because for every path in that set, the path
described by this function contains more nodes.

Informally, the path q from 1/pi under f is
{., .0, .01, .010, .0101, .01010, .010100, .0101000, .01010001,
.010100010, ...}. (Formally, it is only finitely describable as a
function, not as an element-by-element list of nodes.)
This path is distinct from each finite path:
{.} is missing the node .0, which is in q.
{., .0} is missing the node .01, which is in q.
{., .0, .01} is missing the node .010, which is in q.

In fact, we can continue this indefinitely; none of the finite rooted
paths from which the tree is derived contains every node in q. However,
every node in q is in the tree, since every one of its infinitely-many
nodes is reachable from the root node after finitely many branchings.
So q is a path over the maximal complete binary tree even though the
maximal complete binary tree can be derived from a set that does not
contain q.

This is equivalent to the argument from arithmetic that there is, for
every rational x, a rational y that is closer to 1/pi than x, presented
above.

> One of them is false, unless it is a magic tree where something
> happens during construction. But I do not believe in magic, least in
> mathematics.


That a union of infinitely many distinct finite paths can contain
infinite paths does not surprise me. In ZFC, one formulation of the
axiom of infinity takes exactly the form of an infinite union of finite
elements. Only a union of finitely many finite elements or a (possibly,
infinite) union of finitely many distinct finite elements ({1} U {1} U
{1} U {1} U {1} U ... = {1}, for example), neither of which is
sufficient to produce the maximal complete binary tree, is a finite set.

Conversely, in a set theory with no infinite sets, there is also no
binary tree containing the path q (from above). Both kinds of theory
can be internally consistent, which is as close to "true" as anything
in mathematics gets.

-o




Date Subject Author
5/27/09
Read Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Rainer Rosenthal
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Rainer Rosenthal
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
george
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
5/28/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
William Hughes
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/22/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
MeAmI.org
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Aatu Koskensilta
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Daryl McCullough
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/4/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Aatu Koskensilta
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jesse F. Hughes
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Ralf Bader
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/8/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/8/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/9/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/9/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/9/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
William Hughes
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
William Hughes
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
YBM
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/22/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
george
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/28/09
Read Who introduced false logic?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Ralf Bader
5/27/09
Read Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
David C. Ullrich
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Guest
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
David Bernier
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Jack Markan
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/3/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
2/5/13
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
MeAmI.org
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/18/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/20/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
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