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Topic: Answer to Dik T. Winter
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Virgil

Posts: 311
Registered: 5/26/09
Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Posted: Jun 15, 2009 3:28 PM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

In article <2009061512093016807-angrybaldguy@gmailcom>,
Owen Jacobson <angrybaldguy@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2009-06-14 14:41:40 -0400, WM <mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de> said:
>

> > On 14 Jun., 17:31, Owen Jacobson <angrybald...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 2009-06-13 14:29:05 -0400, WM <mueck...@rz.fh-augsburg.de> said:
> >>

> >>> We agree that in Cantor's diagonal argument, applied to real numbers,
> >>> the numbers are represented and identified solely by their digits. No
> >>> further information is available.

> >>
> >>> We assume that a real number p can be distinguished from a set Q of
> >>> real numbers q by general considerations, for instance, if p is a
> >>> transcendental number and Q consists of rational numbers q only.

> >>
> >>> Of course it would be impossible to distinguish p from all q, because
> >>> for every digit d_n of p, there is a number q that shares all digits
> >>> up to d_n with p.

> >>
> >> Wait, so you're arguing that you can't distinguish 1/pi (roughly
> >> 0.31830988...) from a set containing all rationals in [0, 1] because,
> >> for example, 3/10 is equal to 1/pi to the first decimal place, 31/100
> >> is equal to the second, and so on? What about the non-zero difference
> >> between any one rational number and 1/pi?
> >>
> >> |1/pi - 3/10| is greater than the rational 1/50. |1/pi - 31/100| is
> >> greater than the rational 1/125.  In fact, for each rational q in [0,
> >> 1], 1/pi differs from q by an amount greater than some other rational r
> >> in [0, 1], so we can distinguish 1/pi from every rational in [0, 1].

> >
> > If 1/pi exists as an actually infinite digit sequence.

>
> Since there is a function g from N to {0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9}
> that, for *every* element n of N, produces the n'th decimal place of
> 1/pi, it's safe to say that 1/pi has an infinite decimal
> representation. There's also a function g' from N to {0, 1} that
> produces, for *every* element n of N, the n'th bit of the binary
> representation of 1/pi.
>

> > There are two statements:
> > 1) Path p can be distinguished from every path of the countable set P
> > that is used to construct the tree.
> > 2) Path p cannot be distinguished from every path of P.

>
> Reading upstream a bit, I think you've misapprehended the point people
> are making. If P is a set of paths, and the union of all elements of P
> is the maximal complete binary tree, then there can be paths in the
> union of all elements of P that are not in P. If P is a countable set,
> then there are necessarily paths in the union of all elements of P that
> are not in P.
>
> In fact, one such set P is the set of finite rooted paths, which is
> isomorphic to the set of nodes in the maximal complete binary tree.
> We'll adopt a notation where each node is labelled with the set of left
> (denoted as 0) and right (denoted as 1) branchings necessary to reach
> it, prefixed by a dot (.):
>
> . is the root node.
> .0 is the left child of the root node.
> .1 is the right child of the root node.
> .00 is the left child of the left child of the root node.
> .01 is the right child of the left child of the root node.
> .10 is the left child of the right child of the root node.
> .11 is the right chind of the right child of the root node.
> (And so on.)
>
> Because every node can be reached in only finitely many branchings (as
> a consequence of the tree being representable as an infinite set of
> finite paths), every node has a finite label.
>
> We'll denote paths in the standard way, as sets of nodes:
>
> {., .0} is the path from the root to the leftmost rank 1 node.
> {., .0, .01} is the path from the root to the right-hand child of the
> left-hand child of the root node.
>
> Finite rooted paths can also be identified, for convenience, by their
> terminal node: there is one and only one path from the root node to the
> node .001101, so writing out the complete path is pointless. However,
> *infinite* paths do not have a terminal node, so they must be described
> in some other way - for example, by a function from N to the nodes of
> the tree.
>
> A path exists in the tree if and only if (every node on that path is in
> the tree) and (the path is a connected, linear subgraph of the tree).
> Two paths A and B are equal if and only if the set of nodes in path A
> is equal to the set of nodes on path B.
>
> There is a function f from N to the set of nodes that, for every
> natural number n, produces the node labelled by the first n binary
> places of 1/pi's binary expansion. This function describes a path. This
> path is distinct from every path in the set of finite paths used to
> describe the tree, because for every path in that set, the path
> described by this function contains more nodes.
>
> Informally, the path q from 1/pi under f is
> {., .0, .01, .010, .0101, .01010, .010100, .0101000, .01010001,
> .010100010, ...}. (Formally, it is only finitely describable as a
> function, not as an element-by-element list of nodes.)
> This path is distinct from each finite path:
> {.} is missing the node .0, which is in q.
> {., .0} is missing the node .01, which is in q.
> {., .0, .01} is missing the node .010, which is in q.
>
> In fact, we can continue this indefinitely; none of the finite rooted
> paths from which the tree is derived contains every node in q. However,
> every node in q is in the tree, since every one of its infinitely-many
> nodes is reachable from the root node after finitely many branchings.
> So q is a path over the maximal complete binary tree even though the
> maximal complete binary tree can be derived from a set that does not
> contain q.
>
> This is equivalent to the argument from arithmetic that there is, for
> every rational x, a rational y that is closer to 1/pi than x, presented
> above.
>

> > One of them is false, unless it is a magic tree where something
> > happens during construction. But I do not believe in magic, least in
> > mathematics.

>
> That a union of infinitely many distinct finite paths can contain
> infinite paths does not surprise me. In ZFC, one formulation of the
> axiom of infinity takes exactly the form of an infinite union of finite
> elements. Only a union of finitely many finite elements or a (possibly,
> infinite) union of finitely many distinct finite elements ({1} U {1} U
> {1} U {1} U {1} U ... = {1}, for example), neither of which is
> sufficient to produce the maximal complete binary tree, is a finite set.
>
> Conversely, in a set theory with no infinite sets, there is also no
> binary tree containing the path q (from above). Both kinds of theory
> can be internally consistent, which is as close to "true" as anything
> in mathematics gets.
>

Very nice!

--
Virgil


Date Subject Author
5/27/09
Read Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
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6/11/09
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6/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/22/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Rainer Rosenthal
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Rainer Rosenthal
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
george
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
5/28/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
William Hughes
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/22/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
MeAmI.org
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Aatu Koskensilta
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Daryl McCullough
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/4/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Aatu Koskensilta
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/6/09
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G. Frege
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jesse F. Hughes
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Ralf Bader
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/8/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/8/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/9/09
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Jack Markan
6/9/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/9/09
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Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
William Hughes
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
William Hughes
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
YBM
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/22/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/25/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/7/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
george
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
5/27/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/28/09
Read Who introduced false logic?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Ralf Bader
5/27/09
Read Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
David C. Ullrich
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Guest
5/27/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
David Bernier
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Jack Markan
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/3/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
2/5/13
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
MeAmI.org
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/16/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/18/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/20/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
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