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Topic: Answer to Dik T. Winter
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de

Posts: 14,990
Registered: 1/29/05
Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Posted: Jul 2, 2009 5:03 AM
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On 2 Jul., 09:06, "Ross A. Finlayson" <ross.finlay...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Jul 2, 12:01 am, WM <mueck...@rz.fh-augsburg.de> wrote:
>

> > On 2 Jul., 04:03, "Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Win...@cwi.nl> wrote:
>
> > > My answer to your question above is similar.  The question whether a countable
> > > union of countably many sets is countable is implied by the axiom of countable
> > > choice, which is not provable from ZF.  So negating the axiom of countable
> > > choice (which implies negating the axiom of choice) we can have situations
> > > where the conclusion is false.

>
> > Feferman and Levy showed that the statement that the set of all real
> > numbers is the union of a denumerable set of denumerable sets cannot
> > be refuted.

>
> > So does it depend on the chosen axioms, whether R is countable?

>
> No, countable choice is a theorem of ZF.  It is attributed to
> Hausdorff "countable unions of countable sets are not necessarily
> dissimilar from uncountable sets".  However, to him is attributed a
> more direct statement.
>
> R can always be considered countable in for example some constructible
> universe containing the real numbers via Skolemization.  That's where
> it's a countable model, even if R is still uncountable.  The model is
> supposed to be some big ordinal, bigger than any it models, but there
> is no such thing in regular set theories.


There is no model of ZFC. My question is: Is the set of real numbers
uncountable in ZF, is it uncountale in ZFC. Is a countable union of
contable sets uncountable in ZF, is it uncountable in ZFC?

That boils down to the question: Does Cantor's proof show the same as
Feferman and Levy showed? Or does the result depend on the chosen
axioms?

Regards, WM


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MeAmI.org
6/30/09
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Virgil
7/1/09
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Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
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G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
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herb z
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
herb z
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/3/09
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Aatu Koskensilta
7/3/09
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Daryl McCullough
7/2/09
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G. Frege
7/2/09
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G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
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G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
G. Frege
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/3/09
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Dik T. Winter
7/3/09
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G. Frege
7/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
7/3/09
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G. Frege
7/4/09
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Aatu Koskensilta
7/6/09
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Dik T. Winter
7/6/09
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G. Frege
7/6/09
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Dik T. Winter
7/6/09
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Jesse F. Hughes
7/3/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/3/09
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Virgil
7/3/09
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Ralf Bader
7/2/09
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G. Frege
7/2/09
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Virgil
7/2/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/2/09
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ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/2/09
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Virgil
7/2/09
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ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/2/09
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Jack Markan
7/2/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
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Jack Markan
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
7/6/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
7/6/09
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Jack Markan
6/8/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/8/09
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Virgil
6/9/09
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Jack Markan
6/9/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Jack Markan
6/9/09
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Virgil
6/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
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Virgil
6/11/09
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6/11/09
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Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
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Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/12/09
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herb z
6/12/09
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Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/12/09
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Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
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Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
William Hughes
6/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
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YBM
6/11/09
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Virgil
6/11/09
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Dik T. Winter
6/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
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Virgil
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/12/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/19/09
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Dik T. Winter
6/19/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/09
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Virgil
6/22/09
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Dik T. Winter
6/25/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/25/09
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Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Guest
6/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/1/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/3/09
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Dik T. Winter
6/7/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/7/09
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Virgil
6/11/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Dik T. Winter
6/3/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
george
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/29/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
5/31/09
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5/27/09
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Virgil
5/28/09
Read Who introduced false logic?
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5/28/09
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5/30/09
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5/30/09
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5/30/09
Read Re: Who introduced false logic?
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
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5/30/09
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Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Ralf Bader
5/27/09
Read Natural numbers are uniquely defined
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5/27/09
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David C. Ullrich
5/27/09
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Virgil
5/27/09
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5/27/09
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5/28/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/28/09
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5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/29/09
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Virgil
5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
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5/29/09
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5/29/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/30/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Peter Webb
5/31/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/1/09
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David Bernier
6/1/09
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Jack Markan
6/1/09
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Virgil
6/2/09
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george
6/1/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/1/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
Virgil
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/2/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/3/09
Read Re: Natural numbers are uniquely defined
george
6/12/09
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2/5/13
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6/14/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/14/09
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Virgil
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/14/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/15/09
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Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Owen Jacobson
6/15/09
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Virgil
6/15/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
Virgil
6/16/09
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MeAmI.org
6/16/09
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6/16/09
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Virgil
6/18/09
Read Re: Answer to Dik T. Winter
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/09
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Virgil
6/20/09
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