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Topic: michelson morley experiment questions
Replies: 323   Last Post: Jul 25, 2009 6:28 PM

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Ahmed Ouahi, Architect

Posts: 172
Registered: 12/13/04
Re: michelson morley experiment questions
Posted: Jul 14, 2009 7:21 AM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

Yes, indeed!

However, all this mess, has had started once the experimenter michelson, has
had made up an optical instrument called an interferometer, that has had
invented himself along a goal to find the way as a part a wavelength of
light, just as a pattern of light and dark, all along...

Therefore, a definitely along a consideration of the fact, that the earth
really was flying through the ether, as also, that it was, that the ether
wind, which could affect the relative time it would take for two beams to
make their round trips, then the relative phase along two waves would
shift...

However, simply because, michelson, was expecting that when he would rotate
the apparatus, he could remak the change along an interference patterns as
along at least two rays...

Therefore, as no matter, the way and how he tried, the dark and the light
patterns has had not shown anything as any difference along that matter all
along, and this is what is all about along that matter, a definitely as a
matter a fact...

--
Ahmed Ouahi, Architect
Best Regards!


"Whoever" <noone@nowhere.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:007818b1$0$9715$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> "Spirit of Truth" <juneharton@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:HHV6m.15653$bq1.7920@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...

>>
>> "Whoever" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:0077f42c$0$9680$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

>>> "Spirit of Truth" <juneharton@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>>> news:vlT6m.10982$Jb1.3792@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com...

>>>>
>>>> "Sam Wormley" <swormley1@mchsi.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:hJz6m.782029$yE1.228877@attbi_s21...

>>>>> Spirit of Truth wrote:
>>>>>

>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stop being such an uncompromising idiot. Go read Brian Greene's
>>>>>> Best Sellers and when you understand a little about science come
>>>>>> back and then open your at the moment idiot mouth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Spirit of Truth

>>>>>
>>>>> That's really interesting that you suggest reading Brian Greene.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Brian Green gets relativity right! You don't!
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Greene's book are loaded with "ifs" and "what ifs" and most lay
>>>>> people cannot sort out the science from the speculation. I think
>>>>> you are one of those people, Spirit!

>>>>
>>>> No, Sam. if you have Greene's books look up block universe
>>>> which appears in both of them.
>>>>
>>>> I have made no error whatsoever in my statements to you.

>>>
>>> Can you supply an excerpt. I don't have access to the book you are
>>> referring to.
>>>
>>> BTW: You're still not said WHY the universe cannot be block, and how you
>>> could tell whether or not it is. Other than we have to take it on faith
>>> and your assurances.

>>
>> I don't have time to do Greene for you, but have a read of the following
>> conversation, I hope it posts OK:

>
> Thanks
>
> BTW: You do know that in SR if you and another observer are at the same
> place now, regardless of your relative motion, you will experience exactly
> the same universe at that 'now'. Things the you see as simultaneous, they
> will see as simultaneous.
>

>> Dr. E: No-the past and future are not out there. There is indeed a fourth
>> dimension, and that dimension is expanding relative to the three spatial
>> dimensions at the rate of c in units of the Planck length. We perceive
>> time-the past and the future-as events and dreams in our memories and
>> minds, based on the interaction of the fourth expanding dimension with
>> the three stationary dimensions.
>>
>> Narrator : Like the Medieval God's-view of time, Einstein's physics says
>> that the future is already out there. The moments of our lives are just
>> waiting for us to step into them.

>
> It doesn't really say that .. but you can interpret it that way. Your
> future does not yet exist, and your own past is gone. SR doesn't say
> otherwise. Everything where you are now *is* now.
>

>> Roger Penrose : But there's no more problem about the future being out
>> there than saying that space is out there. You say, "Mars is out there",
>> but why is that more comprehensible than saying "next week is out there"?
>> It's just as far away in a certain sense.
>>
>> Physicist : If you take this block of 4-D space/time literally, it means
>> you have to abandon free will.

>
> Not that we know we have free will anyway.
>

>> It means not only is the future pre-ordained, but its already there, its
>> already happened.

>
> 'Already happened' is a misleading term. That's part of the reason why
> this is confusing, we don't have words to describe it.
>

>> There's no point in making any decisions,
>
> We don't know that the 'block' is 'rigid' and cannot alter. But assuming
> it is, you still must make the decision (even if it is a decision not to
> make the decision).
>

>> whatever you do has already happened.
>
> There's that loaded terminology again
>

>> If I choose to drop this stone into a pond, I think of it being my own
>> free choice, but of course in 4-D space/time I had no choice in dropping
>> the stone ; the splash is already there in the future and so we lose all
>> free will.

>
> Not that we know it.
>

>> If time travel was possible,
>
> But its not.
>

>> you can imagine people coming back from the future to visit us; its no
>> good us saying, "you cant exist - you haven't happened yet".They've come
>> from a time which they consider to be their 'now' and for them we're in
>> their path.

>
> We're in the realms of fantasy in contemplating that, of course.
>

>> Roger Penrose : So this means that in a sense, the present past and
>> future are out there, and that also gives us a very deterministic view of
>> the world.

>
> If it was a rigid-block .. or a block at all
>

>> We have no control of what happens in the future because its all laid
>> out. I think the trouble that people have with this idea is that you
>> think the future is under your control, to some degree, and so this means
>> that if the future's laid out then in a sense its not under your control.

>
> In a sense, that is. But not in any way we could possibly determine.
>

>> Physicist : Personally I'm very uncomfortable about the block universe
>> idea. Now this may be just a gut feeling or just irrational, but can't
>> accept the future's already 'out there'. I don't accept that I don't have
>> any free will.

>
> It is a little disturbing, but that doesn't mean its not the case.
>

>> Roger Penrose : I think there is a positive side to this picture of space
>> and time being laid out there as 4 dimensions, because it tells you that
>> all times are there once

>
> Again 'at once' .. a loaded term. If they were at once, they would be at
> the same point in time.
>

>> and it can affect the way one thinks about people who have died. I mean,
>> I remember thinking in this kind of way when my mother died. In some
>> sense she was still there because her existence is still out there in
>> space/time although in our time she is not alive. A colleague of mine had
>> a son who died in tragic circumstances and I presented this idea to him
>> and it helped his understanding also. This was before I heard that
>> Einstein had a colleague died and he wrote to the man's wife that Bessa
>> was still out there, and that somehow this was reassuring. I certainly
>> think this way often, that space/time is laid out and that things in the
>> past and things in the future are out there still.

>
> A comforting thought, I guess
>

>> Narrator : But almost at the same time that Relativity was gaining
>> universal acceptance a radically different picture of the universe was
>> emerging.
>>
>> Physicist : The way out if you don't want to accept the block universe
>> idea is quantum mechanics. Now, Quantum Mechanics is the second great
>> discovery of the 20th century physics and that states that the future
>> isn't predetermined and preordained.

>
> Its just probable :)
>

>> Narrator : Quantum Mechanics was born out of a series of experiments
>> whose results even today have no satisfactory explanation. Relativity
>> works at the large scale where it provides exact predictions as to what
>> will happen next.

>
> No more exact than the physics of Newton and Galileo
>

>> But when physicists started looking down at the atomic and sub-atomic
>> level, the familiar laws failed. At this level, there were no
>> certainties, only probabilities. How can the future of the universe be
>> already out there if the future of a single molecule is so utterly
>> unpredictable?

>
> Very good question. Perhaps the idea of a rigid-block universe idea is
> wrong. Either its not a rigid or its not solid.
>

>> Dr. E: The future of the universe is not already out there. Both quantum
>> mechanics and relativity derive from the same underlying physical reality
>> of a fourth dimension expanding relative to three spatial dimensions at
>> the rate of c in units of the Planck length. The wave-particle duality of
>> matter comes from the inherent non-locality of any matter at a point in
>> the expanding dimension, which would appear as photons expanding in a
>> spherically symmetric manner at the rate of c. The constant speed of
>> light also comes from the physical reality of the fourth dimension
>> expanding relative to the three stationary spatial dimensions. No matter
>> how fast the emitter is traveling, the expanding dimension yet carries
>> the photon at the rate of c.
>>
>> Physicist : Before we look to see what the atom is doing, not only is
>> there a gap in our knowledge, the atom itself has not decided what to do.
>> It had an infinite number of choices to make, it will be doing all those
>> choices all at once, and its only when we look to see what is happening
>> do we force it to make a choice. In Quantum Mechanics the future is not
>> determined, and so Quantum Mechanics in a sense rescues us and rescues
>> free will.
>>
>> Roger Penrose : In a sense you don't have the future laid out in Quantum
>> Mechanics So Quantum Mechanics. is basically different in the way we look
>> at it. You do have this indeterminacy about the future and a necessary
>> feature of this is its incompatibility with Special Relativity.

>
> Incompatible with a 'rigid block' universe .. not necessarily with SR.
>

>> So we have these 2 great theories, both of which are extremely accurate,
>> tell us something about how the world operates, something very insightful
>> and profound and accurate, but they're incompatible with each other. So
>> there's no doubt there's something missing here. How important it is to
>> how we 'feel' the passage of time is I think very important.

>
> Mmmhmm.
>

>> Dr. E: But QM and SR perfectly compatible theories. In SR there is no
>> certain future-

>
> That's right
>

>> that is a byproduct of mistakenly looking at time as a fourth dimension
>> on equal footing with the three spatial dimensions.
>>
>> The passage of time happens because of matter interacting with a
>> dimension that is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions. And
>> all quantum mechanical and relativistic effects may be traced back to
>> Moving Dimensions Theory.

>
> Sounds plausible.
>

>> Narrator: The tragedy of modern physics is that it explains so much of
>> the objective universe but at the cost of what we subjectively feel;
>> about our conscious free will and our feeling that time does flow.

>
> SR doesn't rule out free will.
>

>> Faun Flynn: I very much think there's a flow to time. If you consider
>> what music would be like if there was no flow to time. You couldn't have
>> music if you didn't have memory, or if you didn't have an expectation
>> generated by that memory. You'd have an isolated note in the 'now'. Music
>> unfolds in time in such a way that we have a memory of what we've heard,
>> and this memory conditions to what we expect. This of course is something
>> that everybody is familiar with, because if you hear ( 7 note scale
>> played on piano) you have a very strong expectation that the next note
>> will be (plays final octave note of scale) . Music is a distillation or a
>> side-effect of that mental faculty we employ to perceive time, and things
>> changing in time.

>
> Yeup
>

>> Roger Penrose : The question of the passage of time is something the
>> scientists have rather set aside, and taking the view that its not really
>> physics, it's a subjective issue; and subjective questions are not part
>> of science. Now when you start talking about phenomena like one's own
>> perception of the passage of time, then that is a subjective thing. And
>> that's almost a taboo subject for science because it's subjective. The
>> physical world at least according to Relativity, is out there, and there
>> is no flow of time,

>
> SR doesn't really say anything about that, SR doesn't say that one's own
> future is out there at all, or that our past is. Limited snippets of
> futures and pasts of others may be considered as somehow indeterminately
> out there, but not in any sense that is relevant to our now, or our past,
> or our future.
>

>> it's just there; whereas our feeling (we have this feeling of the passage
>> of time) are intimately connected to our perceptions.

>
> Yeup
>

>> Dr. E: Indeed scientists too often choose their battles selfishly,
>> thereby solving problems by saying that they do not need to be solved,
>> while simultaneously concentrating on obscure theories, spending millions
>> on building empty temples for the herd. The physical future is not out
>> there according to relativity. The passage of time is the result of the
>> propagation of energy. The aging of cells, the oscillations of a quartz
>> crystal, the unwinding of a clock spring, the swing of a pendulum-all of
>> these have to do with the exchange of photons and thus the propagation of
>> energy. And energy propagates at the constant rate of c throughout the
>> universe because the fourth dimension, which carries matter that we
>> perceive as photons, is expanding at the rate of c relative to the three
>> spatial dimensions, in units of the Planck length.
>>
>> Physicist : We have this subjective feeling, that time goes by, but
>> physicists would argue this is just an illusion.

>
> Everything is a perception .. that doesn't mean that its not a perception
> of something real, at least in some sense.
>

>> Roger Penrose : Yes I think physicists would agree that the feeling of
>> time passing is simply an illusion, something that is not real. It has
>> something to do with our perceptions.

>
> Obviously the feeling is .. that doesn't mean that there isn't something
> going on that we perceive and feel as 'time'
>

>> Dr. E: The passage of time is real. Time's arrow, or entropy, or the
>> second law of thermodynamics are all explained by Moving Dimensions
>> Theory. Because a fourth dimension is expanding at the rate of c in a
>> spherically symmetric manner, all particles have a probability of being
>> displaced in a spherically symmetric manner. Thus any two particles close
>> to each other will wander apart.
>>
>>
>> Narrator : Illusion or not, our perceptions emerge somewhere between the
>> cosmic scale of Relativity where the flow of time is frozen

>
> Its not frozen in relativity. Relativity (like all theories of physics)
> would work well if it was .. but its not really necessary
>

>> and the quantum scale, where flow descends to uncertainty. Our world is
>> on a scale governed by a mixture of chance and necessity.
>>
>>
>> Roger Penrose : My view is that there is some large scale quantum
>> activity going on in the brain. Physics does not say that Quantum
>> Mechanics takes place in small areas, but also take place over larger
>> areas. I think this has to do with the consciousness.

>
> That is similar to my own view of consciousness
>

>> I think we need a new way to look at time, not either Quantum Mechanics
>> or Relativity.

>
> Probably a good idea. Though what that is, i don't know. Its such a
> mind-bending topic.
>

>> Dr. E: Moving Dimensions offers this new way of looking at time. Time is
>> not the fourth dimension, but it is a phenomena that arises because a
>> fourth spatial dimension is expanding relative to the three stationary
>> spatial dimensions.
>>
>> Narrator : If Quantum Mechanics is taking place in the brain then the
>> same randomness of outcome and unpredictability might explain our ability
>> to make sometime random choices.

>
> They appear random .. that doesn't mean they are.
>

>> Opening up the future to the possibility of change would provide the
>> first step of restoring to physics the flow of time it currently denies.
>>
>> Physicist : I don't think time flows, I feel that time flows, but I feel
>> we can only understand this if we have a better understanding of how
>> consciousness works. I think human consciousness probably has the secrets
>> as to how and why we think of time as going by.
>>
>> Roger Penrose : I don't think we have the tools, I don't think we have
>> the physical picture to accommodate these things yet. We're not very
>> close to it.
>>
>> ................................................................................................................................
>> ................................................................................................................................
>>
>> The above is part of the intense discussion of this situation between
>> academics.

>
> Very interesting .. thanks. I'd be interested to hear what you think of
> my comments. Other than your non-thinking *plonk*, which basically means
> you don't want to think at all.
>
>
>





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6/26/09
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