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Topic: michelson morley experiment questions
Replies: 323   Last Post: Jul 25, 2009 6:28 PM

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Re: michelson morley experiment questions
Posted: Jul 14, 2009 11:17 PM
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Musatov wrote:
Whoever wrote:
> "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3997@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:05cb6df2-507f-4861-bbbf-0d91277e6a15@32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...

> > On Jul 14, 8:05 pm, "Whoever" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >> "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> >>
> >> news:95471494-cc92-4d8c-b988-2de404f0dda8@i6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>

> >> > On Jul 14, 4:11 am, "Whoever" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >> >> "Spirit of Truth" <junehar...@prodigy.net> wrote in
> >> >> messagenews:HHV6m.15653$bq1.7920@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...

> >>
> >> >> > "Whoever" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >> >> >news:0077f42c$0$9680$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

> >> >> >> "Spirit of Truth" <junehar...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> >> >> >>news:vlT6m.10982$Jb1.3792@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com...

> >>
> >> >> >>> "Sam Wormley" <sworml...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
> >> >> >>>news:hJz6m.782029$yE1.228877@attbi_s21...

> >> >> >>>> Spirit of Truth wrote:
> >>
> >> >> >>>>> Stop being such an uncompromising idiot. Go read Brian Greene's
> >> >> >>>>> Best Sellers and when you understand a little about science come
> >> >> >>>>> back and then open your at the moment idiot mouth.

> >>
> >> >> >>>>> Spirit of Truth
> >>
> >> >> >>>> That's really interesting that you suggest reading Brian
> >> >> >>>> Greene.

> >>
> >> >> >>>> 1. Brian Green gets relativity right! You don't!
> >>
> >> >> >>>> 2. Greene's book are loaded with "ifs" and "what ifs" and most
> >> >> >>>> lay
> >> >> >>>> people cannot sort out the science from the speculation. I
> >> >> >>>> think
> >> >> >>>> you are one of those people, Spirit!

> >>
> >> >> >>> No, Sam. if you have Greene's books look up block universe
> >> >> >>> which appears in both of them.

> >>
> >> >> >>> I have made no error whatsoever in my statements to you.
> >>
> >> >> >> Can you supply an excerpt. I don't have access to the book you are
> >> >> >> referring to.

> >>
> >> >> >> BTW: You're still not said WHY the universe cannot be block, and
> >> >> >> how
> >> >> >> you
> >> >> >> could tell whether or not it is. Other than we have to take it on
> >> >> >> faith
> >> >> >> and your assurances.

> >>
> >> >> > I don't have time to do Greene for you, but have a read of the
> >> >> > following
> >> >> > conversation, I hope it posts OK:

> >>
> >> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> >> BTW: You do know that in SR if you and another observer are at the
> >> >> same
> >> >> place now, regardless of your relative motion, you will experience
> >> >> exactly
> >> >> the same universe at that 'now'. Things the you see as simultaneous,
> >> >> they
> >> >> will see as simultaneous.

> >>
> >> > When I saw this I had to double check to make sure you had written the
> >> > above and that you were not quoting someone else. The above is not
> >> > correct. The obvious example is the train experiment. When M and M'
> >> > coincide they are at the same place. For M the strikes are happening
> >> > at A and B now. For M' the strike already happen at B before he met
> >> > M, while the strike at A has yet to happen.

> >>
> >> But they EXPERIENCE the same things. What you experience is what you
> >> sense
> >> .. what you sense is what happens where you are .. not at some other
> >> location.

> >
> > Somehow I don't think many readers would interpert "same universe"

>
> it is the same universe. the universe is the universe ..there are not
> different ones for each observer
>

> > as
> > meaning just the event happening at that one location the instant they
> > are together.

>
> I said their experience of it .. what reaches them from the events in the
> past
>

> > That is a mighty small universe. If you mean
> > everything they can see from that spot at that one instant I think you
> > will find things differ. I will explain further down. Also when we
> > talk of simultaneity in SR we are usually speaking of events seperated
> > by space. Technically I suppose you can say an event is simultaneous
> > with itself, but that's begging for confusion.

>
> That's right .. so that is why, at a given location in time and space, the
> events there are observed at the same time by all observers .. even if that
> event is a photon arriving from some distant location.
>

> >> Indeed, it is impossible for something happening now somewhere
> >> else to affect you. These are events in space-time at your location.
> >> And
> >> the speed of an observer does not change events at some location. That's
> >> why I used the word experience.

> >
> > I think if you get detailed enough about what they see their
> > experiences are different even when at the same spot. Again, further
> > down.

>
> I can hardly wait
>

> >> Perhaps it would be a little clearer if I worded it as "you will have the
> >> same experience of the universe at the 'now'".
> >>
> >> An example is that if two observers meet, travelling at different speeds
> >> (maybe one is walking past), .. for each of them a remote point at that
> >> time
> >> in their mutual x-direction in (say) another galaxy will correspond to
> >> different points in time in that remote galaxy. However, they will both
> >> have
> >> identical experiences of that galaxy. So, if there was a telescope where
> >> they pass, they would each see the same image of the galaxy from a single
> >> time. Even though what they consider (but not experience) as 'now' in
> >> that
> >> galaxy is different times.- Hide quoted text -
> >>
> >> - Show quoted text -

> >
> > Try looking away from the x axis.

>
> Fine
>

> > Let's say N' is moving parallel to
> > M' and is perpendicular to M'.

>
> Umm parallel and perpendicular to the same thing? Not sure if I follow yet
> .. let me see. Do you mean at any given time N' and M' have the same x
> coordinate, but a different y coordinate?
>

> > In the path of N' lies N some distance
> > in the -x direction from the y axis.

>
> what does 'the -x direction from the y axis' mean?
>

> > When N' coincides with N a flash
> > is emitted. The flash arrives at the location of M and M' just as
> > they coincide.

>
> What and where is M and where is it travelling .. its suddenly appeared form
> nowhere in your description
>

> > M will see the flash coming from N, who is to the - side of the y
> > axis. He will also see N' at that location. M' will see the flash
> > come from N', who is perpendicular to him on the y' axis. M' will
> > also see N at the flash.
> >
> > So even though M and M' agree that N and N' were together when the
> > flash happen, they don't agree on where the flash took place.

>
> They may disagree on how they label their axes, that's all.
>
> Further .. separate remote events, that one observer at a given point in
> spacetime sees as simultaneous, another relatively moving observer at the
> same point in spacetime will also see as simultaneous. Note that this is
> different to what they would calculate by convention as being simultaneous.
>

> > And by
> > that I don't mean the grid coordinates as reported by other observers,
> > but what M and M' would see of distant events with their own eyes. If
> > M and M' both point their (narrow field of view) telescopes
> > perpendicular to the x axis M' will see the flash but M will not.

>
> Either the photon arrives there, or it doesn't. Either both telescopes are
> there or they aren't. if the light arrives through one of the telescopes to
> one observer, it arrives through that same telescope for the other. One
> observer may choose differently which photons to pay attention to, of
> course.


Play it again, Sam. A+B=Whatever you say it means.

--
Musatov


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6/28/09
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6/26/09
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