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Topic: michelson morley experiment questions
Replies: 323   Last Post: Jul 25, 2009 6:28 PM

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John Doe

Posts: 298
Registered: 12/6/04
Re: michelson morley experiment questions
Posted: Jul 14, 2009 11:35 PM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

"Whoever" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:026d333b$0$20667$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3997@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:05cb6df2-507f-4861-bbbf-0d91277e6a15@32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...

>> On Jul 14, 8:05 pm, "Whoever" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>> "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:95471494-cc92-4d8c-b988-2de404f0dda8@i6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

>>> > On Jul 14, 4:11 am, "Whoever" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>> >> "Spirit of Truth" <junehar...@prodigy.net> wrote in
>>> >> messagenews:HHV6m.15653$bq1.7920@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...

>>>
>>> >> > "Whoever" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>> >> >news:0077f42c$0$9680$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

>>> >> >> "Spirit of Truth" <junehar...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>>> >> >>news:vlT6m.10982$Jb1.3792@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com...

>>>
>>> >> >>> "Sam Wormley" <sworml...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
>>> >> >>>news:hJz6m.782029$yE1.228877@attbi_s21...

>>> >> >>>> Spirit of Truth wrote:
>>>
>>> >> >>>>> Stop being such an uncompromising idiot. Go read Brian Greene's
>>> >> >>>>> Best Sellers and when you understand a little about science
>>> >> >>>>> come
>>> >> >>>>> back and then open your at the moment idiot mouth.

>>>
>>> >> >>>>> Spirit of Truth
>>>
>>> >> >>>> That's really interesting that you suggest reading Brian
>>> >> >>>> Greene.

>>>
>>> >> >>>> 1. Brian Green gets relativity right! You don't!
>>>
>>> >> >>>> 2. Greene's book are loaded with "ifs" and "what ifs" and most
>>> >> >>>> lay
>>> >> >>>> people cannot sort out the science from the speculation. I
>>> >> >>>> think
>>> >> >>>> you are one of those people, Spirit!

>>>
>>> >> >>> No, Sam. if you have Greene's books look up block universe
>>> >> >>> which appears in both of them.

>>>
>>> >> >>> I have made no error whatsoever in my statements to you.
>>>
>>> >> >> Can you supply an excerpt. I don't have access to the book you
>>> >> >> are
>>> >> >> referring to.

>>>
>>> >> >> BTW: You're still not said WHY the universe cannot be block, and
>>> >> >> how
>>> >> >> you
>>> >> >> could tell whether or not it is. Other than we have to take it on
>>> >> >> faith
>>> >> >> and your assurances.

>>>
>>> >> > I don't have time to do Greene for you, but have a read of the
>>> >> > following
>>> >> > conversation, I hope it posts OK:

>>>
>>> >> Thanks
>>>
>>> >> BTW: You do know that in SR if you and another observer are at the
>>> >> same
>>> >> place now, regardless of your relative motion, you will experience
>>> >> exactly
>>> >> the same universe at that 'now'. Things the you see as simultaneous,
>>> >> they
>>> >> will see as simultaneous.

>>>
>>> > When I saw this I had to double check to make sure you had written the
>>> > above and that you were not quoting someone else. The above is not
>>> > correct. The obvious example is the train experiment. When M and M'
>>> > coincide they are at the same place. For M the strikes are happening
>>> > at A and B now. For M' the strike already happen at B before he met
>>> > M, while the strike at A has yet to happen.

>>>
>>> But they EXPERIENCE the same things. What you experience is what you
>>> sense
>>> .. what you sense is what happens where you are .. not at some other
>>> location.

>>
>> Somehow I don't think many readers would interpert "same universe"

>
> it is the same universe. the universe is the universe ..there are not
> different ones for each observer
>

>> as
>> meaning just the event happening at that one location the instant they
>> are together.

>
> I said their experience of it .. what reaches them from the events in the
> past
>

>> That is a mighty small universe. If you mean
>> everything they can see from that spot at that one instant I think you
>> will find things differ. I will explain further down. Also when we
>> talk of simultaneity in SR we are usually speaking of events seperated
>> by space. Technically I suppose you can say an event is simultaneous
>> with itself, but that's begging for confusion.

>
> That's right .. so that is why, at a given location in time and space, the
> events there are observed at the same time by all observers .. even if
> that event is a photon arriving from some distant location.
>

>>> Indeed, it is impossible for something happening now somewhere
>>> else to affect you. These are events in space-time at your location.
>>> And
>>> the speed of an observer does not change events at some location.
>>> That's
>>> why I used the word experience.

>>
>> I think if you get detailed enough about what they see their
>> experiences are different even when at the same spot. Again, further
>> down.

>
> I can hardly wait
>

>>> Perhaps it would be a little clearer if I worded it as "you will have
>>> the
>>> same experience of the universe at the 'now'".
>>>
>>> An example is that if two observers meet, travelling at different speeds
>>> (maybe one is walking past), .. for each of them a remote point at that
>>> time
>>> in their mutual x-direction in (say) another galaxy will correspond to
>>> different points in time in that remote galaxy. However, they will both
>>> have
>>> identical experiences of that galaxy. So, if there was a telescope
>>> where
>>> they pass, they would each see the same image of the galaxy from a
>>> single
>>> time. Even though what they consider (but not experience) as 'now' in
>>> that
>>> galaxy is different times.- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -

>>
>> Try looking away from the x axis.

>
> Fine
>

>> Let's say N' is moving parallel to
>> M' and is perpendicular to M'.

>
> Umm parallel and perpendicular to the same thing? Not sure if I follow
> yet .. let me see. Do you mean at any given time N' and M' have the same
> x coordinate, but a different y coordinate?
>

>> In the path of N' lies N some distance
>> in the -x direction from the y axis.

>
> what does 'the -x direction from the y axis' mean?
>

>> When N' coincides with N a flash
>> is emitted. The flash arrives at the location of M and M' just as
>> they coincide.

>
> What and where is M and where is it travelling .. its suddenly appeared
> form nowhere in your description
>

>> M will see the flash coming from N, who is to the - side of the y
>> axis. He will also see N' at that location. M' will see the flash
>> come from N', who is perpendicular to him on the y' axis. M' will
>> also see N at the flash.
>>
>> So even though M and M' agree that N and N' were together when the
>> flash happen, they don't agree on where the flash took place.

>
> They may disagree on how they label their axes, that's all.
>
> Further .. separate remote events, that one observer at a given point in
> spacetime sees as simultaneous, another relatively moving observer at the
> same point in spacetime will also see as simultaneous. Note that this is
> different to what they would calculate by convention as being
> simultaneous.
>

>> And by
>> that I don't mean the grid coordinates as reported by other observers,
>> but what M and M' would see of distant events with their own eyes. If
>> M and M' both point their (narrow field of view) telescopes
>> perpendicular to the x axis M' will see the flash but M will not.

>
> Either the photon arrives there, or it doesn't. Either both telescopes
> are there or they aren't. if the light arrives through one of the
> telescopes to one observer, it arrives through that same telescope for the
> other. One observer may choose differently which photons to pay attention
> to, of course.


Note that further, what each observer gets when they use that information to
calculate what is 'really' happening can be different. If the observers
know the speed of light is c for both of them, and know their relatives
velocities etc, then one observer may calculate that the events 'really'
were simultaneous, and the other that they 'really' weren't.



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7/14/09
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7/25/09
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6/28/09
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7/1/09
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6/26/09
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