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Topic: michelson morley experiment questions
Replies: 323   Last Post: Jul 25, 2009 6:28 PM

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bsr3997@my-deja.com

Posts: 54
Registered: 12/22/05
Re: michelson morley experiment questions
Posted: Jul 16, 2009 12:17 AM
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On Jul 15, 1:27 am, "Whoever" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>
> news:d6511117-b26d-4392-b54e-08d7dcabaca1@a7g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>

> > On Jul 14, 10:41 pm, "Whoever" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >> "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:05cb6df2-507f-4861-bbbf-0d91277e6a15@32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On Jul 14, 8:05 pm, "Whoever" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >> >> "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>
> >> >>news:95471494-cc92-4d8c-b988-2de404f0dda8@i6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> > On Jul 14, 4:11 am, "Whoever" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> "Spirit of Truth" <junehar...@prodigy.net> wrote in
> >> >> >> messagenews:HHV6m.15653$bq1.7920@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...

>
> >> >> >> > "Whoever" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >> >> >> >news:0077f42c$0$9680$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

> >> >> >> >> "Spirit of Truth" <junehar...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> >> >> >> >>news:vlT6m.10982$Jb1.3792@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com...

>
> >> >> >> >>> "Sam Wormley" <sworml...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
> >> >> >> >>>news:hJz6m.782029$yE1.228877@attbi_s21...

> >> >> >> >>>> Spirit of Truth wrote:
>
> >> >> >> >>>>> Stop being such an uncompromising idiot. Go read Brian
> >> >> >> >>>>> Greene's
> >> >> >> >>>>> Best Sellers and when you understand a little about science
> >> >> >> >>>>> come
> >> >> >> >>>>> back and then open your at the moment idiot mouth.

>
> >> >> >> >>>>> Spirit of Truth
>
> >> >> >> >>>>   That's really interesting that you suggest reading Brian
> >> >> >> >>>> Greene.

>
> >> >> >> >>>>   1. Brian Green gets relativity right! You don't!
>
> >> >> >> >>>>   2. Greene's book are loaded with "ifs" and "what ifs" and
> >> >> >> >>>> most
> >> >> >> >>>> lay
> >> >> >> >>>>      people cannot sort out the science from the speculation.
> >> >> >> >>>> I
> >> >> >> >>>> think
> >> >> >> >>>>      you are one of those people, Spirit!

>
> >> >> >> >>> No, Sam. if you have Greene's books look up block universe
> >> >> >> >>> which appears in both of them.

>
> >> >> >> >>> I have made no error whatsoever in my statements to you.
>
> >> >> >> >> Can you supply an excerpt.  I don't have access to the book you
> >> >> >> >> are
> >> >> >> >> referring to.

>
> >> >> >> >> BTW: You're still not said WHY the universe cannot be block, and
> >> >> >> >> how
> >> >> >> >> you
> >> >> >> >> could tell whether or not it is.  Other than we have to take it
> >> >> >> >> on
> >> >> >> >> faith
> >> >> >> >> and your assurances.

>
> >> >> >> > I don't have time to do Greene for you, but have a read of the
> >> >> >> > following
> >> >> >> > conversation, I hope it posts OK:

>
> >> >> >> Thanks
>
> >> >> >> BTW: You do know that in SR if you and another observer are at the
> >> >> >> same
> >> >> >> place now, regardless of your relative motion, you will experience
> >> >> >> exactly
> >> >> >> the same universe at that 'now'.  Things the you see as
> >> >> >> simultaneous,
> >> >> >> they
> >> >> >> will see as simultaneous.

>
> >> >> > When I saw this I had to double check to make sure you had written
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > above and that you were not quoting someone else.  The above is not
> >> >> > correct.  The obvious example is the train experiment.  When M and
> >> >> > M'
> >> >> > coincide they are at the same place.  For M the strikes are
> >> >> > happening
> >> >> > at A and B now.  For M' the strike already happen at B before he met
> >> >> > M, while the strike at A has yet to happen.

>
> >> >> But they EXPERIENCE the same things.  What you experience is what you
> >> >> sense
> >> >> .. what you sense is what happens where you are .. not at some other
> >> >> location.

>
> >> > Somehow I don't think many readers would interpert "same universe"
>
> >> it is the same universe.  the universe is the universe ..there are not
> >> different ones for each observer

>
> >> > as
> >> > meaning just the event happening at that one location the instant they
> >> > are together.

>
> >> I said their experience of it .. what reaches them from the events in the
> >> past

>
> >> > That is a mighty small universe.  If you mean
> >> > everything they can see from that spot at that one instant I think you
> >> > will find things differ.  I will explain further down.  Also when we
> >> > talk of simultaneity in SR we are usually speaking of events seperated
> >> > by space.  Technically I suppose you can say an event is simultaneous
> >> > with itself, but that's begging for confusion.

>
> >> That's right .. so that is why, at a given location in time and space,
> >> the
> >> events there are observed at the same time by all observers .. even if
> >> that
> >> event is a photon arriving from some distant location.

>
> >> >> Indeed, it is impossible for something happening now somewhere
> >> >> else to affect you.  These are events in space-time at your location.
> >> >> And
> >> >> the speed of an observer does not change events at some location.
> >> >> That's
> >> >> why I used the word experience.

>
> >> > I think if you get detailed enough about what they see their
> >> > experiences are different even when at the same spot.  Again, further
> >> > down.

>
> >> I can hardly wait
>
> >> >> Perhaps it would be a little clearer if I worded it as "you will have
> >> >> the
> >> >> same experience of the universe at the 'now'".

>
> >> >> An example is that if two observers meet, travelling at different
> >> >> speeds
> >> >> (maybe one is walking past), .. for each of them a remote point at
> >> >> that
> >> >> time
> >> >> in their mutual x-direction in (say) another galaxy will correspond to
> >> >> different points in time in that remote galaxy. However, they will
> >> >> both
> >> >> have
> >> >> identical experiences of that galaxy.  So, if there was a telescope
> >> >> where
> >> >> they pass, they would each see the same image of the galaxy from a
> >> >> single
> >> >> time. Even though what they consider (but not experience) as 'now' in
> >> >> that
> >> >> galaxy is different times.- Hide quoted text -

>
> >> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> > Try looking away from the x axis.
>
> >> Fine
>
> >> > Let's say N' is moving parallel to
> >> > M' and is perpendicular to M'.

>
> >> Umm parallel and perpendicular to the same thing?  Not sure if I follow
> >> yet
> >> .. let me see.  Do you mean at any given time N' and M' have the same x
> >> coordinate, but a different y coordinate?

>
> >> > In the path of N' lies N some distance
> >> > in the -x direction from the y axis.

>
> >> what does 'the -x direction from the y axis' mean?
>
> >> > When N' coincides with N a flash
> >> > is emitted.  The flash arrives at the location of M and M' just as
> >> > they coincide.

>
> >> What and where is M and where is it travelling .. its suddenly appeared
> >> form
> >> nowhere in your description

>
> >> > M will see the flash coming from N, who is to the - side of the y
> >> > axis.  He will also see N' at that location.  M' will see the flash
> >> > come from N', who is perpendicular to him on the y' axis.  M' will
> >> > also see N at the flash.

>
> >> > So even though M and M' agree that N and N' were together when the
> >> > flash happen, they don't agree on where the flash took place.

>
> >> They may disagree on how they label their axes, that's all.
>
> >> Further .. separate remote events, that one observer at a given point in
> >> spacetime sees as simultaneous, another relatively moving observer at the
> >> same point in spacetime will also see as simultaneous.  Note that this is
> >> different to what they would calculate by convention as being
> >> simultaneous.

>
> >> > And by
> >> > that I don't mean the grid coordinates as reported by other observers,
> >> > but what M and M' would see of distant events with their own eyes.  If
> >> > M and M' both point their (narrow field of view) telescopes
> >> > perpendicular to the x axis M' will see the flash but M will not.

>
> >> Either the photon arrives there, or it doesn't.  Either both telescopes
> >> are
> >> there or they aren't.  if the light arrives through one of the telescopes
> >> to
> >> one observer, it arrives through that same telescope for the other.  One
> >> observer may choose differently which photons to pay attention to, of
> >> course.- Hide quoted text -

>
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > I hate doing ascii art but...
>
> >        |         |
> > --------N'---N----+--------
> >        |     \   |
> >        |      \  |
> >        |       \ |
> >        |        \|
> > --------M'--------M-------- x-axis
> >        |         |
> >        y'        y
> >       axis      axis

>
> Ok .. thanks .. a picture is worth a thousand words .. even if its ascii art
>

> > This is the setup with N' and M' moving to the right.  When N and N'
> > coincide they emit a flash.  In the frame of M the photon travels down
> > the diagonal from N to M, arriving at the same instant that M'
> > coincides with M.  In the frame of M' the photon will come straight
> > down the y' axis, which at that moment coincides with the y axis.
> > Without having to consider time M and M' see things differently in
> > that the same photon arrives from two different directions.

>
> > As for the view with the telescope, it cannot be totally seperated
> > from time.  In the case of M' the vertical telescope moving to the
> > right catches the photon as it comes down the diagonal path.  With the
> > stationary vertical telescope of M the photon hits the wall of the
> > telescope.  Picture trying to hit the bottom of a vertical tube with a
> > rain drop.  Horizontal motion makes a difference.

>
> Only if you say the telescopes only exist in one frame of reference of the
> other.


You are the one that wrote, "Either both telescopes are there or they
aren't." Your use of "both" implies two telescopes. Since we are
talking about two observers moving relative to each other it only
makes sense that each has his own telescope. They both exist in both
frames, but they do not see things the same. Specificly they need to
be pointed in different directions when they coincide in order for the
observers to see the same flash.

> The universe exists in every frame of reference.  So if the photon
> hits the side wall of a telescope in one frame of reference, it will hit the
> same side wall of the same telescop in every frame of reference.


You know better than that. The eye pieces of both telescopes are at
the same point but the body extends outward in the direction of
observation. That is why I specified, "M and M' both point their
(narrow field of view) telescopes". The direction the telescope has
to point tells you where they have to look to see something.

With M' aiming his telescope perpendicular to the direction of
relative motion, straight at N', the photon travels right down the
middle of the telescope. It doesn't matter which frame you view it
from. If M aims his telescope perpendicular to the direction of
relative motion, straight up the y axis, the photon emitted at N/N'
will not go down the middle of the telescope in either frame.

Your original statement went beyond saying, "The universe exists in
every frame of reference." You wrote, "you will have the same
experience of the universe at the 'now'". I took that to mean that
both observers, being at the same place, at the same instant in time,
would see things the same way. I think most readers would agree with
that interpertation. And I have shown that in fact the two observers
see the universe differently despite viewing it from the same point in
time and space.

> > My biggest complaint about what you wrote above was the use of the
> > word "simultaneous".  You said that if two photons arrived at the same
> > event they were simultaneous.

>
> I said if the photons arrive they appear or are experienced or are seen as
> simultaneous.


That may have been what you were thinking but what you wrote was,
"Things the you see as simultaneous, they will see as simultaneous."
That reads an awful lot like a crank explaining that simultanity is
absolute.

> > We have enough trouble with the cranks
> > around here without endorsing that definition.

>
> I didn't redefine it.  I said "see as simultaneous". In the context of what
> an observer would see due to photons being detected where he is .. not about
> what happened at the remote location in the past.  The two observers would,
> of course, calculate different results for whether the two events 'really'
> were simultaneous.


Try "whether the two emission events were simultaneous." The use of
'really' just causes more confusion. They really are and really are
not, depending on which frame you make your measurements in.

> >   In our usual
> > definition of simultaneous we are talking about the emission events of
> > the photons.  The fact that they arrive at the same instant does not
> > make those events simultaneous unless they have traveled the same
> > distance.

>
> I never claimed it did
>

> > How is it Ken puts it, "M' sees the flashes simultaneously at a
> > different time." ;)

>
> BAHAHAHA
>
> Perhaps another way of putting it is talking about the 'perceived now' (I
> don't know if that is a term I just coined or if it has some other meaning
> .. lets just pretend I coined it :)).  So basically everything you see (or
> could see if photons from there/then could reach you directly) would be part
> of your 'perceived now'.  Think of the light-cone concept.  Things that
> happen 'after' your the 'perceived now' (eg they are too far away, or at too
> late a time, or both) cannot possibly affect you 'now'.  For a given point
> in space time (ie a given point in space at a given time), the 'perceived
> now' is the same set of events, regardless of any observer (so it is
> absolute, if you like, rather than relative).  Note also that this is not a
> subjective concept.


I understood what you meant in your original statement. I was mostly
just pointing out that it was ambiguous and could easily be
misinterpreted by someone that did not already understand relativity.
It could also be intentionally misinterpreted in future discussions by
some of the cranks around here. I try to be very careful how I say
things so that I don't get into pissing contests with cranks that love
the opertunity to misinterpret things.

Bruce



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