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Topic: Another AC anomaly?
Replies: 280   Last Post: Dec 27, 2009 3:53 PM

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T.H. Ray

Posts: 1,107
Registered: 12/13/04
Re: Another AC anomaly?
Posted: Nov 25, 2009 7:34 AM
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Herman Jurjus wrote

> Jesse F. Hughes wrote:
> > Herman Jurjus <hjmotz@hetnet.nl> writes:
> >

> >> Apparently there's something wrong with backward
> supertasks (and not
> >> with ordinary, 'forward' supertasks). But why
> should that be?
> >
> > Well, I'm not at all sure that there's no problem

> with forward
> > supertasks. Surely, it is not difficult to come up
> with a
> > problematic case.
> >
> > For instance, take our favorite example: at each

> time t - 1/n, place
> > balls 10(n-1) to 10n - 1 in a vase and then remove
> ball n. At the end
> > the vase is empty.
> >
> > Now alter the situation slightly. At each step,

> again place 10 balls
> > into the vase and then remove one ball, but remove
> the ball
> > *randomly*. At the end, the vase may contain any
> number of balls.
> > This strikes me as suitably counterintuitive to say
> that the forward
> > supertask has something wrong with it. Or,
> perhaps, with my
> > intuitions.
>
> More conclusive (at least for me): you switch a light
> bulb on and off;
> after infinitely many steps, is the light on or off?
> (Or: you put one
> and the same ball in the vase, out of the vase, in
> the vase, out of the
> vase, etc. What's in the vase/where's the ball after
> infinitely many steps?)
> If you can't trust supertask-reasoning in this case,
> why should you
> trust it in other, seemingly less problematic cases?
>

Infinity isn't a number. Infinitely many steps have no
context in this problem. The problem description fixes
the domain at countably infinite; however, even that term
has no meaning in the absence of a higher cardinality.

One has to mean, in this context, an arbitrarily large
number of steps. In order to answer the question, though,
one requires infinite information. That is, in an
arbitrarily long string of 0s and 1s representing the
state of the lamp at a discrete moment, one must be able
to identify a segment of a certain magnitude and inspect
the endpoint for the state at that singular moment. A
little reflection informs us that information is not
discrete--even though moments of time are countable; i.e.,
however short or long the segment, the initial condition
(off or on) determines the final state (odd or even
number). If there is no final state, there is no certain
answer.

The deep implications of discretely countable moments
containing infinite information have led some researchers
(Lev Goldfarb for one, I for another--though by very
different routes) to the published conclusion that time
and information are identical. A geometric, or pre-
geometric approach, as she would say, leads Fotini
Markopoulou to a theory that _only_ time, and not space,
exists.

In any case, though, the axiom of choice has no relevance
to a question in which time plays the central role,
because even though one may choose arbitrary initial
conditions, such a choice compels no information that
lies outside that model and which imposes a non-arbitrary
moment on both our physical and mathematical experience,
no matter whether we deem such a moment arbitrarily short
or arbitrarily long.

Tom


> For the sake of clarity: I'm not endorsing or
> advocating the
> backward-supertask paradox as extremely important.
> Just wanted to share
> it here, because I had never heard of it, and thought
> perhaps others
> also hadn't.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Herman Jurjus



Date Subject Author
11/23/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Jesse F. Hughes
11/23/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Herman Jurjus
11/23/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
master1729
11/25/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
T.H. Ray
11/24/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
george
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
george
11/25/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Bill Taylor
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Daryl McCullough
11/30/09
Read What's wrong with supertasks? (was Re: Another AC anomaly?)
Herman Jurjus
12/1/09
Read Jesse Hughes of Bentley College uses signature block to defame
others; Ann Reeves Re: What's wrong with supertasks?
plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Jesse Hughes of Bentley College uses signature block to defame
others; Ann Reeves Re: What's wrong with supertasks?
Marshall
12/1/09
Read using signature-blocks to defame innocent people Re: Jesse Hughes of
Bentley College
plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Jesse Hughes of Bentley College uses signature block to defame
others; Ann Reeves Re: What's wrong with supertasks?
Seth Breidbart
12/1/09
Read Re: using signature-blocks to defame innocent people Re: Jesse Hughes
of Bentley College
Marshall
12/2/09
Read Re: using signature-blocks to defame innocent people Re: Jesse Hughes
of Bentley College
Marshall
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
LauLuna
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Alan Smaill
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Alan Smaill
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/2/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/2/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/2/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/2/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/2/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/3/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/3/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/3/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/3/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/7/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/15/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/15/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/15/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/15/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
YBM
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Quaestor
12/18/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/18/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/18/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/22/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/22/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/18/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Quaestor
12/21/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/21/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/21/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/21/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/22/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/11/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Jesse F. Hughes
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/3/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/3/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/3/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/15/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
T.H. Ray
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/4/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/4/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/4/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
george
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
george
12/13/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/13/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/15/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
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Quaestor
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Quaestor
12/18/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/18/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/18/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/22/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/22/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/21/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/21/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/21/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/22/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Ralf Bader
12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/13/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/13/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/4/09
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K_h
12/4/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/4/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/4/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/4/09
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Virgil
12/5/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/5/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/5/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/6/09
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Virgil
12/5/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Carsten Schultz
12/2/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
george
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil

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