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Topic: Another AC anomaly?
Replies: 280   Last Post: Dec 27, 2009 3:53 PM

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Herman Jurjus

Posts: 103
Registered: 9/7/09
What's wrong with supertasks? (was Re: Another AC anomaly?)
Posted: Nov 30, 2009 3:13 AM
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Daryl McCullough wrote:
> Bill Taylor says...
>

>> One of my favourites is this; for naturals n:- compare...
>>
>> a) At each time 1 - 1/n, add balls numbered
>> 2^(n-1) to 2^n - 1 to the pot, and remove ball number n.
>>
>> b) At each time 1 - 1/n, add 2^(n-1) - 1 balls to the pot, and
>> replace the numbering stickers in agreement with case (a).
>>
>> After time 1:
>> the final situation in case (a) is that the pot is empty.
>> in case (b), the pot has infinitely many balls with no stickers!
>>
>> And yet at any intermediate time the two cases are indistinguishable!
>>
>> This sort of example shows that even omega-supertasks
>> can be remarkably silly!

>
> Actually, I think that they are fun to think about.
> What this example (and similar ones) show is that
> for tasks involving a transfinite number of steps,
> you have to be more precise about what you are doing.
> In order for mathematics to tell us what the result
> is of performing some supertask, you have to describe
> the supertask using standard mathematical objects
> (typically sets). There are modeling choices that
> have to be made, and the answer can depend on the
> modeling choice. If it does depend on the modeling
> choice, that means that the original supertask was
> insufficiently specified.
>
> The big ambiguity is how to compute limit states.
> Associated with each ordinal alpha, there is a
> corresponding state of the system, S_alpha. The
> statement of the supertask explains how to go
> from S_alpha to S_{alpha+1}. But that tells us
> nothing about the state S_alpha when alpha is
> a limit ordinal.
>
> There are certain assumptions about the limit
> states that are so "obvious" that they seem
> to go without saying. For instance: "If a
> ball is added at stage alpha_1, and is never
> removed at any stage beta such that
> alpha_1 < beta < alpha_2, and alpha_2 is a
> limit ordinal, then the ball is present at
> stage alpha_2. But that's an assumption about
> the limit state. To really reason about supertasks,
> you have to state all the assumptions about
> limit states.


Apologies for the delayed response.

Imho, the problem is much worse.

In order to draw any conclusion at all about the limit cases, you need
an additional assumption, something to the effect of a frame assumption
like 'apart from the manipulations explicitly announced, no other
manipulations are done'.

Now consider the case of the light bulb. Also assume that LEM holds, and
that 'possible worlds reasoning applies'. Then we could reason as follows:
The possible worlds are divided into two classes: those in which the
light bulb is on at t = 1, and those in which it is off.
But in the worlds in which it's off: who put it off, and when? And in
the worlds in which it's on: who put it on, and when? Both types of
worlds will violate the frame assumption.

So, we might conclude: in the case of the light bulb puzzle, it's not
just unknown or not determined by the assumptions whether the light is
on or off. It's ill-determined in a stronger way.
The least thing we should conclude is that formalizing the 'obvious'
underlying frame assumption is a non-trivial task, probably not even
possible within the confines of FOL. (FOL 'is' the logic of possible
worlds reasoning where LEM is assumed.)

(Which is /not/ a very spectacular or new conclusion, btw - it's well
known from AI that frame assumptions are slippery.)

--
Cheers,
Herman Jurjus


Date Subject Author
11/23/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Jesse F. Hughes
11/23/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Herman Jurjus
11/23/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
master1729
11/25/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
T.H. Ray
11/24/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
george
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
george
11/25/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Bill Taylor
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Daryl McCullough
11/30/09
Read What's wrong with supertasks? (was Re: Another AC anomaly?)
Herman Jurjus
12/1/09
Read Jesse Hughes of Bentley College uses signature block to defame
others; Ann Reeves Re: What's wrong with supertasks?
plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Jesse Hughes of Bentley College uses signature block to defame
others; Ann Reeves Re: What's wrong with supertasks?
Marshall
12/1/09
Read using signature-blocks to defame innocent people Re: Jesse Hughes of
Bentley College
plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Jesse Hughes of Bentley College uses signature block to defame
others; Ann Reeves Re: What's wrong with supertasks?
Seth Breidbart
12/1/09
Read Re: using signature-blocks to defame innocent people Re: Jesse Hughes
of Bentley College
Marshall
12/2/09
Read Re: using signature-blocks to defame innocent people Re: Jesse Hughes
of Bentley College
Marshall
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/28/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/26/09
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LauLuna
11/26/09
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William Hughes
11/26/09
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anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
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Alan Smaill
11/29/09
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William Hughes
11/30/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/30/09
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Virgil
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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Virgil
11/27/09
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William Hughes
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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Alan Smaill
11/27/09
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Virgil
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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Dik T. Winter
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/30/09
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Dik T. Winter
11/30/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/2/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/2/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/2/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/2/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/2/09
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Virgil
12/3/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/3/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/3/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/3/09
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K_h
12/7/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/7/09
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Virgil
12/8/09
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K_h
12/8/09
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Virgil
12/9/09
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K_h
12/9/09
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Virgil
12/9/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/9/09
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Virgil
12/9/09
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K_h
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/9/09
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K_h
12/9/09
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Virgil
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/10/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
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Virgil
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
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Virgil
12/15/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/15/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/15/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/15/09
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K_h
12/16/09
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Virgil
12/16/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/16/09
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Virgil
12/17/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/17/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
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Virgil
12/17/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
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YBM
12/17/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
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Quaestor
12/18/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/18/09
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Virgil
12/18/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/19/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/19/09
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Virgil
12/22/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/22/09
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Virgil
12/18/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/19/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/19/09
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Quaestor
12/21/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/21/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/21/09
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Marshall
12/21/09
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Virgil
12/22/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/27/09
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Virgil
12/16/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/16/09
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Virgil
12/11/09
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K_h
12/11/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
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K_h
12/11/09
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Marshall
12/12/09
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Jesse F. Hughes
12/12/09
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K_h
12/12/09
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K_h
12/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
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Virgil
12/10/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
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Virgil
12/10/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
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Virgil
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
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K_h
12/11/09
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Virgil
12/7/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/7/09
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Virgil
12/8/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/8/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/8/09
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anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
12/8/09
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Virgil
12/8/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/8/09
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Virgil
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/3/09
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Virgil
12/3/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/3/09
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Virgil
12/7/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/7/09
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Virgil
12/7/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/7/09
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Virgil
12/8/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/8/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/8/09
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Virgil
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/10/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
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Virgil
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
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Virgil
12/11/09
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Virgil
12/15/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/16/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
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T.H. Ray
12/17/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/4/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/4/09
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Virgil
12/4/09
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Marshall
12/7/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/7/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/7/09
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Virgil
12/8/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/8/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/8/09
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Virgil
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/10/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
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Virgil
12/10/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
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Marshall
12/11/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
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Virgil
12/11/09
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Virgil
12/11/09
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Marshall
12/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/12/09
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Virgil
12/12/09
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Marshall
12/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/12/09
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Virgil
12/12/09
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Marshall
12/12/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/12/09
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Virgil
12/12/09
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Marshall
12/12/09
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george
12/12/09
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Virgil
12/12/09
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george
12/13/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/13/09
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Virgil
12/15/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/16/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/16/09
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Virgil
12/17/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/17/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
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Quaestor
12/17/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
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Quaestor
12/18/09
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12/18/09
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Virgil
12/18/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/19/09
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12/19/09
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Virgil
12/19/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/19/09
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Marshall
12/19/09
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Virgil
12/19/09
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Virgil
12/19/09
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12/19/09
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Virgil
12/22/09
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ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/22/09
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Marshall
12/27/09
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ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/21/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/21/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/21/09
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Virgil
12/22/09
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Dik T. Winter
12/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/27/09
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Marshall
12/27/09
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Virgil
12/27/09
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Virgil
12/27/09
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Ralf Bader
12/27/09
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Virgil
12/13/09
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12/13/09
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Virgil
12/4/09
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K_h
12/4/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/4/09
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Virgil
12/4/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/4/09
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Virgil
12/5/09
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12/5/09
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Virgil
12/5/09
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12/6/09
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Virgil
12/5/09
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Carsten Schultz
12/2/09
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12/1/09
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george
12/1/09
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Virgil
11/27/09
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Virgil
11/27/09
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anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
11/30/09
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William Hughes
11/27/09
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William Hughes
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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William Hughes
11/27/09
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anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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Virgil
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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Virgil
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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William Hughes
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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Virgil

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