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Topic: Another AC anomaly?
Replies: 280   Last Post: Dec 27, 2009 3:53 PM

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Virgil

Posts: 870
Registered: 7/27/09
Re: Another AC anomaly?
Posted: Dec 7, 2009 3:39 PM
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In article
<247baff4-5209-49dc-a203-7ccfe492b5b0@d21g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
WM <mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de> wrote:

> On 7 Dez., 16:32, "Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Win...@cwi.nl> wrote:
>

> >  > 1) N is a set that follows (as omega, but that is not important) from
> >  > the axiom of infinity. You can take it "from the shelf".
> >
> > Actually: N is the smallest inductive set that starts with 1.  The axiom
> > of infinity states that that set does exist, but with that definition it
> > is *not* defined as a limit.

>
> I said you can take it from the shelf.


That particular shelf does not exist until AFTER N has been created.


> It is not defined as a limit (if you like so) although amazingly
> omega is called a limit ordinal.


For a different meaning of "limit". The word "limit" has more than one
possible meaning, and its meaning depends on context.

> >
> >  > 2) N is the limit of the sequence a_n = ({1, 2, 3, ...,n})
> >
> > You have first to define the limit of a sequence of sets before you can
> > state such.

>
> No.


Yes. Undefined processes are meaningless in mathematics.
>
> > N is (in set theory) defined before even the concept of the
> > limit of a sequence of sets is defined (if that concept is defined at
> > all in the particular treatise).

>
> N is a concept of mathematics. That's enough.


We think so, but you apparently disagree.
> >
> >  > 3) N is the limit, i.,e. the infinite union of singletons {1} U {2}
> >  > U ...
> >
> > No, the infinite union is *not* a limit.  It is defined without even the
> > presence of the concept of a limit of a sequence of sets.

>
> The infinite union is a limit.


No definition of union requires any limit process.
The union of any set S is defined to be the set T of all elements of
elements of S.

> Why did you argue that limits of
> cardinality and sets are different


We didn't do that exactly. What we argued, and still argue, is that the
claim that they are ALWAYS the same is false. And, IIRC, Dik provided an
example in which they are not the same.
>
> >  > But if (3) is correct, then N must also be the limit of the process
> >  > described in my
> >  >http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~mueckenh/GU/GU12.PPT#394,22,Folie22
> >  > without and *with* the intermediate cylinder.
> >
> > I see no process there, only a picture of a cylinder with the digits 1, 2,
> > 3,
> > 4 and 5, and an open cube.

>
> It is a good tactics to play possum or play stupid.


Which is why WM employes those ploys so often.

But such tactics do not constitute proofs, which are the only winning
tactics at math.

And WM has show himself, time and again, incapable of proofs at any
level above the trivial.


Date Subject Author
11/23/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Jesse F. Hughes
11/23/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Herman Jurjus
11/23/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
master1729
11/25/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
T.H. Ray
11/24/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
george
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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11/25/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Daryl McCullough
11/30/09
Read What's wrong with supertasks? (was Re: Another AC anomaly?)
Herman Jurjus
12/1/09
Read Jesse Hughes of Bentley College uses signature block to defame
others; Ann Reeves Re: What's wrong with supertasks?
plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Jesse Hughes of Bentley College uses signature block to defame
others; Ann Reeves Re: What's wrong with supertasks?
Marshall
12/1/09
Read using signature-blocks to defame innocent people Re: Jesse Hughes of
Bentley College
plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Jesse Hughes of Bentley College uses signature block to defame
others; Ann Reeves Re: What's wrong with supertasks?
Seth Breidbart
12/1/09
Read Re: using signature-blocks to defame innocent people Re: Jesse Hughes
of Bentley College
Marshall
12/2/09
Read Re: using signature-blocks to defame innocent people Re: Jesse Hughes
of Bentley College
Marshall
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/28/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
LauLuna
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/26/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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11/29/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
12/1/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/2/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/2/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/2/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/2/09
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12/2/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/3/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/3/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/3/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/3/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/7/09
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12/8/09
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12/9/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/18/09
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12/18/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/18/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/22/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/22/09
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12/18/09
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12/19/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/21/09
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12/21/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/21/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/21/09
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12/22/09
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12/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
K_h
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/12/09
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12/11/09
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12/10/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
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12/10/09
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12/10/09
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12/10/09
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12/7/09
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12/8/09
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12/8/09
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12/8/09
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12/10/09
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12/3/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/3/09
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12/3/09
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12/7/09
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12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/7/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/10/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/10/09
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12/11/09
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12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/15/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/16/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/16/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/17/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/4/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/4/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/4/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Marshall
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/7/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/8/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/10/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Dik T. Winter
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/11/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/12/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/12/09
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12/12/09
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12/17/09
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12/18/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/19/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/19/09
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12/19/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/19/09
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12/19/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/19/09
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Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/22/09
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12/27/09
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12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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12/27/09
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12/13/09
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12/4/09
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12/4/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/4/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
12/4/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/4/09
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Virgil
12/5/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/5/09
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Virgil
12/5/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
12/6/09
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Virgil
12/5/09
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12/2/09
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Virgil
12/1/09
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george
12/1/09
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Virgil
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil
11/27/09
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anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
11/30/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
William Hughes
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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11/27/09
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anonymous.rubbertube@yahoo.com
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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Virgil
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
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Virgil
11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
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11/27/09
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
11/27/09
Read Re: Another AC anomaly?
Virgil

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