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Topic: Another AC anomaly?
Replies: 280   Last Post: Dec 27, 2009 3:53 PM

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 Dik T. Winter Posts: 7,899 Registered: 12/6/04
Re: Another AC anomaly?
Posted: Dec 17, 2009 8:44 AM

In article <ba9f2c85-caa2-491d-9263-bea1bed3ab1e@p19g2000vbq.googlegroups.com> WM <mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de> writes:
> On 16 Dez., 03:31, "Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Win...@cwi.nl> wrote:
> > > Why that? Group, ring and field are treated in my lessons.
> >
> > You think that something that satisfies the ZF axioms being a collection
> > of sets is rubbish, while something that satisfies the ring axioms being
> > a ring is not rubbish?

>
> Yes, exactly that is true.

And why, except by opinion?

> > > You believe in infinite paths. But you cannot name any digit that
> > > underpins your belief. Every digit that you name belongs to a finite
> > > path.

> >
> > Right. But there is no finite path that contains them all. I believe
> > in a path that contains them all, and that is an infinite path.

>
> There is a finite path that contains larger numbers than you can ever
> think of.

Aha, you are clearly a mindreader. Well, as far as I know mindreading is not
part of mathematics. Anyhow, I can think of numbers larger than that path.
But that is completely irrelevant. I am able to think about a set that
contains all natural numbers, you apparently are not.

> > > Every digit that is on the diagonal of Canbtor's list is a
> > > member of a finite initial segment of a real number.

> >
> > Right, but there is no finite initial segment that contains them all.

>
> That is pure opinion, believd by the holy bible (Dominus regnabit in
> aeternum
> et ultra. [2. Buch Moses: Exodus 15 Vers 18]) or forced upon us by the

Sorry, I have no knowledge of the bible. But live without that axiom when
you can't stomach it. And do not attack mathematicians who live with that
axiom.

> > > You can only argue about such digits. And all of them (in form of
> > > bits) are present in my binary tree.

> >
> > Right, but your tree does not contain infinite paths, as you explicitly
> > stated.

>
> The tree contains all paths that can be constructed by nodes, using
> the axiom of infinity. Which one would be missing?

The infinite paths because you stated a priori that your tree did not
contain infinite paths. So it is impossible to construct in your tree
infinite paths by the axiom of infinity. You can construct infinite
sequences of nodes, but as you stated *explicitly* that your tree did
not contain infinite paths, those infinite sequences of nodes are
apparently not paths within your terminology.

> > > It exists in that fundamentally arithmetical way: You can find every
> > > bit of it in my binary tree constructed from finite paths only. You
> > > will fail to point to a digit of 1/3 that is missing in my tree.
> > > Therefore I claim that every number that exists is in the tree.

> >
> > In that case you have a very strange notion of "existing in the tree".
> > Apparently you do *not* mean "existing as a path". So when you say that
> > the number of (finite) paths is countable, I agree, but 1/3 is not
> > included in that, because it is not a path according to your statements.

>
> It is. I constructed a finite path from the root node to each other
> node.

Yup, you constructed a finite path, and that does not represent 1/3.

> Then I appended an infinite tail.

Whatever that may be, it is *not* a path according to your explicit statement
that the tree did not contain infinite paths.

> When the tree is completed,
> then the tail becomes invisible, because every sequenece of nodes has
> been constructed.

But not every sequence of nodes is a path according to your explicit
statements.

> But if you don't believe me, then look at the tree:
> You can see and admire every node and its connection to the root and
> the continuing paths downwards. So let me know what you think is
> missing.

Which of thos paths represents 1/3? (I may node that 1/3 does not have
a last binary digit.)

> > > Isn't a path a sequence of nodes, is it?
> >
> > Apparently not in your tree. In your tree a path is a finite sequence
> > of nodes.

>
> The tree is the union of all paths. There is no end.

Yes, and by your statements a path is a finite sequence of nodes, so there
are no infinite paths in your tree.

> > > Everey node of 1/3 (that you
> > > can prove to belong to 1/3) is in the tree.

> >
> > Right, but there is no path that denotes 1/3.
> >

> > > > Similar for 'pi' and 'e'.
> > >
> > > Yes. Every digit is available on request.

> >
> > Right, but there is no path that denotes either 'pi' or 'e'.

>
> Which node is missing?

That is irrelevant. The path is missing. According to your explicit
statements not every sequence of nodes is a path.

> > > Wrong. Not only "apparantly" but provably (on request):
> >
> > There is no proof needed. Apparently there are real numbers in your tree
> > without being a path, because each path is finite (by your own
> > definition).

>
> You are wrong. The paths in the complete tree aer unions of all finite
> paths.

Rubbish. You have stated, explicitly, that your tree contained only
finite paths. So apparently there are sequences of nodes (the infinite
sequences) that are not a path.

> > > Every digit of
> > > every real number that can be shown to exist exists in the tree.

> >
> > But not every real number is represented in the tree by a path.

>
> Every real number is there, that can be represented by digits.

That is irrelevant, it is not represented by a path because by your statements
paths are finite.

> > > Or would you say that a number, every existing digit of which can be
> > > shown to exist in the tree too, is not in the tree as a path?

> >
> > Yes, by your own admissions. You state (explicitly) that every path is
> > finite and it is easy to prove that every number that is represented by
> > such a path is a rational number with a denominator that is a power of 2.
> > So there are apparently real numbers of which every digit is in the tree
> > that are not represented as a path, like 1/3.

>
> Even if I appended the tail 010101... ?

According to your definitions that is not part of a path.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, science park 123, 1098 xg amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

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