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Topic: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Replies: 658   Last Post: Feb 17, 2013 10:15 AM

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Peter Webb

Posts: 945
Registered: 12/6/04
Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Posted: Jun 19, 2010 10:29 PM
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"Tim Little" <tim@little-possums.net> wrote in message
news:slrni1qp19.jrj.tim@soprano.little-possums.net...
> On 2010-06-19, Peter Webb <webbfamily@DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
>> "Tim Little" <tim@little-possums.net> wrote in message
>>> The simple fact is that no such requirement exists. Cantor's diagonal
>>> proof applies to *every* mapping from N to R, recursively enumerable
>>> or not, showing that no such mapping is surjective.

>>
>> No. It requires that any listing be provided in advance, so that the
>> anti-diagonal can be formed.

>
> I did not have you pegged as someone who does not understand the
> nature of mathematical proof, but it seems I was mistaken. Cantor's
> proof is of the simple form
>
> P(x) [ Conditional introduction ]
> ... [ Bulk of work goes here ]
> ~Q(x)
> P(x) -> ~Q(x) [ Conditional proof ]
> ~Ex (P(x) and Q(x))
>
> In this case P(x) is the predicate "x is a function mapping natural
> numbers to real numbers". Q(x) is the predicate "x is surjective".
>
> Note that nowhere does it require any additional properties on x, such
> as being recursively enumerable, or your mathematical nonsense term
> "provided in advance".


Cantor's proof requires the purported list of all Reals to be provided. He
then finds a Real not on the list.

My proof works exactly the same way. You give me a purported list of all
computable Reals, and I find a computable Real not on the list.

The stuff about the set being "recursively enumerable" is not part of the
proof. It is my explanation of why you cannot form a list of all computable
Reals. Its clearly not because the computable Reals are uncountable, because
they are known to be countable.

> You appear to be ascribing some special
> significance to the initial "appearance" of x beyond the simple
> conditional introduction.
>


No idea what you are talking about.

Perhaps if you could explain how my proof differs from Cantor's proof, that
would be a start.


> If I have a proof that there is no greatest real number, and format it
> as follows:
>
> Suppose x is a real number. Then (bunch of stuff using the definition
> of real number) there exists x+1 such that x+1 > x. Therefore there
> does not exist a greatest real number.
>


Yes.

> This has the same logical form as Cantor's proof, just substituting
> real numbers for lists and greatest for complete. Do you insist that
> this proof holds only for computable x, because it must be "provided
> in advance"?
>


No it isn't. Its nothing like Cantor's proof.

You seem to accept Cantor's proof, but not mine. Yet they are almost
identical, the only difference being I have inserted the word "computable"
in front of "reals".

I can't see how you can accept one and not the other.

>
>> The simple fact is that if insert the word "computable" in front of
>> every reference to "Real" in Cantor's proof that there is no list of
>> all Reals, you produce a proof that thye computable Reals cannot be
>> listed either.

>
> No, you don't. You get an invalid proof, because although the
> antidiagonal can be proven to be real regardless of what function maps
> natural numbers to reals, it cannot be proven to be computable.


It is extremely easy to compute.

Take the nth decimal place of the nth term. We can alsaways do this, because
by one definition a computable number can be calculated to any required
degree of accuracy. Do the digit substitution. That is clearly computable.
Therefore the anti-diagonal can be calculated to any required degree of
accuracy, and is therefore computable.



>
>

>> Some countable sets cannot be listed either, such as the set of
>> Computable Reals. This is because the set of computable Reals is not
>> recursively enumerable, and hence cannot be listed by a terminating
>> process.

>
> Your requirement for "recursively enumerable" and "terminating
> process" is completely irrelevant.


Irrelevant to the proof, yes. But very relevant to explaining what is
happening.

My proof does not use the terms "recursively enumerable" or "terminating
processes". I introduced these terms to explain why the list of all
computable numbers cannot be formed. That such a list cannot be formed is
easily proved using the slight modification to Cantor's proof that I
provided. I was merely trying to explain the conclusion of the proof - why
there can be no list of all computable numbers. Its certainly not because
they are uncountable, which is the common misunderstanding of Cantor's
original proof.



> An infinite list of members of a
> set X is exactly a function from N to X. Nothing more or less.


Correct.

> If
> you are interpreting Cantor's proof in any other manner, you are plain
> mistaken.
>


I am using Cantor's proof exactly, except for inserting the word
"computable" before every use of the word "real". That is the whole point.


>
> - Tim




Date Subject Author
6/15/10
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Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point? Because yur logic is too blunted to make any point.
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6/27/10
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6/27/10
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6/27/10
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6/28/10
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6/27/10
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6/15/10
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fishfry
6/15/10
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|-|ercules
6/15/10
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6/15/10
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/15/10
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Virgil
6/16/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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Virgil
6/16/10
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6/16/10
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Virgil
6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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Virgil
6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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Virgil
6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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|-|ercules
6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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Virgil
6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/15/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/15/10
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6/16/10
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6/21/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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|-|ercules
6/16/10
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mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/16/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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Virgil
6/16/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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george
6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/17/10
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6/17/10
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6/17/10
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6/17/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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ross.finlayson@gmail.com
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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ross.finlayson@gmail.com
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6/17/10
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6/17/10
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6/17/10
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6/17/10
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6/17/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/18/10
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6/19/10
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6/19/10
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6/19/10
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6/19/10
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6/19/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/21/10
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6/21/10
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6/21/10
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6/23/10
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6/23/10
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6/21/10
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6/21/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/19/10
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Tim Little
6/19/10
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6/19/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/21/10
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6/21/10
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6/23/10
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6/23/10
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6/21/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/21/10
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6/20/10
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6/18/10
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6/19/10
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6/19/10
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6/19/10
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6/19/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/21/10
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6/21/10
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6/22/10
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6/22/10
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6/22/10
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6/19/10
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6/19/10
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6/19/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/19/10
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6/18/10
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6/19/10
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6/19/10
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6/19/10
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6/19/10
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6/20/10
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6/20/10
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6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/10
Read Musatov responds to WM on Cantor: intelligence, real
, judge for yourself: Cantor’s idea seems to me to assume
because two sets converge to infinity the nature of infinity
and the number of elements in each set must become equal.
Guest
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Musatov responds to WM on Cantor: intelligence,
real, judge for yourself: Cantor’s idea seems to me to ass
ume because two sets converge to infinity the nature of infi
nity and the number of elements in each set must become equa
l.
lwalke3@lausd.net
2/17/13
Read Re: Musatov responds to WM on Cantor: intelligence,
real, judge for yourself: Cantor’s idea seems to me to ass
ume because two sets converge to infinity the nature of infi
nity and the number of elements in each set must become equa
l.
2/17/13
Read Re: Musatov responds to WM on Cantor: intelligence,
real, judge for yourself: Cantor’s idea seems to me to ass
ume because two sets converge to infinity the nature of infi
nity and the number of elements in each set must become equa
l.
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
K_h
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
K_h
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
K_h
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
K_h
6/21/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Owen Jacobson
6/21/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/21/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Owen Jacobson
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
K_h
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Daryl McCullough
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Daryl McCullough
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Daryl McCullough
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Daryl McCullough
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/21/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/21/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Mike Terry
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Aatu Koskensilta
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Aatu Koskensilta
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
lwalke3@lausd.net
2/17/13
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Aatu Koskensilta
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
lwalke3@lausd.net
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
lwalke3@lausd.net
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
lwalke3@lausd.net
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
ostap_bender_1900@hotmail.com
6/21/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/22/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/27/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Frederick Williams

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