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Topic: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Replies: 658   Last Post: Feb 17, 2013 10:15 AM

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Owen Jacobson

Posts: 133
Registered: 5/23/08
Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Posted: Jun 28, 2010 7:56 PM
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On 2010-06-28 02:16:28 -0400, Peter Webb said:

> "Owen Jacobson" <angrybaldguy@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2010062800145641786-angrybaldguy@gmailcom...

>> On 2010-06-27 22:59:12 -0400, Peter Webb said:
>>> Thirdly, I already provided a definition of "listable" which is
>>> equivalent to being recursively enumerable. If people try and redefine
>>> terms to mean something different, then there are going to be
>>> misunderstandings.

>>
>> Then let's do away with the word entirely, for the sake of understanding.
>>
>> To recap: I believe your point to be that we can add the word
>> "computable" to "real" in Cantor's diagonal argument and arrive at the
>> conclusion that the computable reals are either uncountable or not
>> recursively enumerable (it's unclear which). To do this, you use an
>> informal presentation of Cantor's diagonal argument which uses the word
>> "list". So, here is an informal presentation of Cantor's diagonal
>> argument that avoids the word "list" (as well as a few other common
>> verbal shortcuts):
>>
>> 1. Let S be the set {0, 1}^N.
>> 2. For any function L from N to S, we can identify an element of S not
>> in the image of L.
>> 3. To do so, we identify an element d of S that is the diagonal of L:
>> for every natural number x, the x'th element of d is equal to the x'th
>> element of L(x).
>> 4. Given d, we can identify an element d' of S that is the
>> anti-diagonal of L: for every natural number x, the x'th element of d'
>> is 1 if the x'th element of d is 0 and is 0 if the x'th element of d is
>> 1.
>> 5. Since for every natural number x, L(x) differs from d' at the x'th
>> place, d' is not in the image of L.
>> 6. Therefore no function from N to S is surjective.
>>
>> Where should we insert the word "computable" (or the term "recursively
>> enumerable") to arrive at your argument?
>>

>
> Hmmm. This proof assumes that the function L is in fact computable, and
> that the function can be explicitly defined.
>
> This occurs in step 4. You state we can "identify an element d of S
> that is on the diagonal".


As Tim pointed out, I misspoke there. Here is a revised version with
that error corrected:

1. Let S be the set {0, 1}^N.
2. For any function L from N to S, there exists an element of S not in
the image of L.
3. There exists an element d of S with the following property: for
every natural number x, the x'th element of d is equal to the x'th
element of L(x).
4. Since d exists, there also exists an element d' of S with the
following property: for every natural number x, the x'th element of d'
is 1 if the x'th element of d is 0 and is 0 if the x'th element of d is
1.
5. Since for every natural number x, L(x) differs from d' at the x'th
place, d' is not in the image of L.
6. Therefore no function from N to S is surjective.

> However, in answer to your question, I would insert the word
> "computable" before the word "function" in step 2.


This gives us the following altered argument:

1. Let S be the set {0, 1}^N.
2. For any *computable* function L from N to S, there exists an element
of S not in the image of L.
3. Note that there exists an element d of S with the following
property: for every natural number x, the x'th element of d is equal to
the x'th element of L(x).
4. Since d exists, there also exists an element d' of S with the
following property: for every natural number x, the x'th element of d'
is 1 if the x'th element of d is 0 and is 0 if the x'th element of d is
1.
5. Since for every natural number x, L(x) differs from d' at the x'th
place, d' is not in the image of L.
6. Therefore no *computable* function from N to S is surjective.

Since the computable functions from N to S are a subset of the
functions from N to S, this argument is sound, if uninteresting -- the
conclusion also follows more simply from the more general argument.
However, I believe you also wish to reach a different conclusion. What
else should we change?

>> (Of course, if you *really* want to be picky, we can dig up Georg's own
>> paper on the subject.)
>>

>
> The problem I have is with the standard/common presentation of Cantor's
> diagonal proof using digits.


We can re-frame the argument above in terms of functions from N to the
set S' = {0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9}^N fairly easily. Doing so
doesn't change the proof, other than making the specifications in steps
3 and 4 above slightly more complicated. It's also possible to prove
that |S| = |S'|.

> This starts with a purported "list", and explicitly uses the values of
> each item in the list. It then proves no such list can exist.


No. It proves that no list of reals can *be complete* (or, rather, that
no function from N to S, or from N to R, can be surjective). Infintely
many lists of reals (functions from N to R) exist.

-o



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6/15/10
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6/27/10
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6/28/10
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fishfry
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/16/10
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6/15/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/16/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/15/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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6/15/10
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6/16/10
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6/15/10
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6/16/10
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6/16/10
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ross.finlayson@gmail.com
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Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/10
Read Musatov responds to WM on Cantor: intelligence, real
, judge for yourself: Cantor’s idea seems to me to assume
because two sets converge to infinity the nature of infinity
and the number of elements in each set must become equal.
Guest
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Musatov responds to WM on Cantor: intelligence,
real, judge for yourself: Cantor’s idea seems to me to ass
ume because two sets converge to infinity the nature of infi
nity and the number of elements in each set must become equa
l.
lwalke3@lausd.net
2/17/13
Read Re: Musatov responds to WM on Cantor: intelligence,
real, judge for yourself: Cantor’s idea seems to me to ass
ume because two sets converge to infinity the nature of infi
nity and the number of elements in each set must become equa
l.
2/17/13
Read Re: Musatov responds to WM on Cantor: intelligence,
real, judge for yourself: Cantor’s idea seems to me to ass
ume because two sets converge to infinity the nature of infi
nity and the number of elements in each set must become equa
l.
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
K_h
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
K_h
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
K_h
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
K_h
6/21/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Owen Jacobson
6/21/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/21/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Owen Jacobson
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
K_h
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Daryl McCullough
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Daryl McCullough
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Daryl McCullough
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Daryl McCullough
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/21/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/21/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Mike Terry
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Tim Little
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Peter Webb
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Aatu Koskensilta
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Aatu Koskensilta
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/16/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Jack Markan
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
lwalke3@lausd.net
2/17/13
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Aatu Koskensilta
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
lwalke3@lausd.net
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
lwalke3@lausd.net
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/17/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
lwalke3@lausd.net
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/20/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
|-|ercules
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
6/19/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Virgil
6/18/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
ostap_bender_1900@hotmail.com
6/21/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/22/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Sylvia Else
6/27/10
Read Re: Why can no one in sci.math understand my simple point?
Frederick Williams

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