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Topic: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Replies: 204   Last Post: Jul 13, 2010 11:11 AM

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PD

Posts: 2,970
Registered: 5/25/05
Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Posted: Jul 6, 2010 11:07 AM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

On Jul 5, 12:12 am, colp <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote:
> On Jul 5, 7:27 am, PD <thedraperfam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>

> > On Jul 3, 6:07 pm, colp <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 4, 2:10 am, PD <thedraperfam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 3, 1:04 am, colp <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jul 3, 2:57 am, PD <thedraperfam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jul 1, 6:25 pm, colp <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Jul 2, 2:26 am, PD <thedraperfam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Jul 1, 12:53 am, colp <c...@solder.ath.cx> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On Jul 1, 11:37 am, Koobee Wublee <koobee.wub...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Jun 30, 4:20 pm, artful wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 1, 8:47 am, colp wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > The statement that "moving clocks run slow" isn't an
> > > > > > > > > > > > oversimplification, it is directly inferred from Einstein's
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies".

>
> > > > > > > > > > > It IS an over simplification.  There is more to SR than just clocks
> > > > > > > > > > > running slow.

>
> > > > > > > > > > Nonsense and mysticism.  <shrug>
>
> > > > > > > > > A postulate is just an assumption with better table manners.
>
> > > > > > > > Yes, indeed. By DEFINITION, a postulate is something that is ASSUMED.
>
> > > > > > > > In science, the test of a postulate is based on experimental check of
> > > > > > > > the *consequences* of postulates. A direct test of the postulate is
> > > > > > > > not required.

>
> > > > > > > One such test is the test for paradoxes arising from one or more
> > > > > > > postulates. For example, the following two postulates lead to a
> > > > > > > paradox, meaning that not all the postulates are correct:

>
> > > > > > > 1. Statement 2 is true.
> > > > > > > 2. Statement 1 is false.

>
> > > > > > > The paradox that arises from the postulates of Einstein's
> > > > > > > "Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies" can be described as follows:

>
> > > > > > > "Examples of this sort, together with the unsuccessful attempts to
> > > > > > > discover
> > > > > > > any motion of the earth relatively to the ?light medium,? suggest that
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > phenomena of electrodynamics as well as of mechanics possess no
> > > > > > > properties
> > > > > > > corresponding to the idea of absolute rest. They suggest rather that,
> > > > > > > as has
> > > > > > > already been shown to the first order of small quantities, the same
> > > > > > > laws of
> > > > > > > electrodynamics and optics will be valid for all frames of reference
> > > > > > > for which the
> > > > > > > equations of mechanics hold good.1 We will raise this conjecture (the
> > > > > > > purport
> > > > > > > of which will hereafter be called the ?Principle of Relativity?) to
> > > > > > > the status
> > > > > > > of a postulate, and also introduce another postulate, which is only
> > > > > > > apparently
> > > > > > > irreconcilable with the former, namely, that light is always
> > > > > > > propagated in empty
> > > > > > > space with a definite velocity c which is independent of the state of
> > > > > > > motion of the
> > > > > > > emitting body."

>
> > > > > > > Einstien, Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies (Introduction)
>
> > > > > > > This text describes Einstein's postulate that there is no preferred
> > > > > > > inertial frame of reference.

>
> > > > > > > "If at the points A and B of K there are stationary clocks which,
> > > > > > > viewed in the stationary system, are synchronous; and if the clock at
> > > > > > > A is moved with the velocity v along the line AB to B, then on its
> > > > > > > arrival at B the two clocks no longer synchronize, but the clock moved
> > > > > > > from A to B lags behind the other which has remained at B ..."

>
> > > > > > > Einstien, Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies (Section 4)
>
> > > > > > > The text describes the time dilation of a clock that moves from point
> > > > > > > A to point B. If there is no preferred frame of reference then it is
> > > > > > > just as true to say that
> > > > > > > the clock is viewed as part of a stationary system and the points A
> > > > > > > and B are in a moving system which moves at velocity -v. The
> > > > > > > conclusion that time for both systems can be dilated with respect to
> > > > > > > the other system is paradoxical.

>
> > > > > > No, it's not paradoxical at all.
>
> > > > > It is paradoxical because time for both systems cannot be dilated with
> > > > > respect to each other.

>
> > > > This is your assumption about what can and cannot be.
>
> > > No, it is a logical inference derived from Einstein's description of
> > > time dilation and his postulate that there is not preferred frame of
> > > reference.

>
> > No, I'm sorry, but that is not a good inference.
>
> Why can't you identify what is wrong with it then?
>

> > I don't have any idea
> > how you conclude from his postulate about no preferred frame that time
> > for both systems cannot be dilated with respect to each other.

>
> That isn't what I am saying. I'm saying that for time for both systems
> to be dilated with respect to each other constitutes a paradox,


No, it does not.

I suspect that you believe that it is because you believe the
statement made by relativity is that "moving clocks run slow". You
hear this to mean that "Clock A is running slower than clock B, and
clock B is running slower than clock A." You furthermore believe that,
logically, "Clock A is running slower than clock B" necessarily
implies that "Clock B is running faster than clock A" and hence the
paradox arises with the combination of sentences "Clock B is running
faster than clock A" and "Clock B is running slower than clock A."
The problem, you see, is that the comic-book statement you are using
as your launching point belongs in COLP's Oversimplified Relativity.

Relativity doesn't make that statement as carelessly and loosely as
you're using it.

Instead, it makes a more precise statement about what it MEANS to say
that Clock B is running slower than Clock A. And here is where
identification of particular *events* comes into play. And this makes
all the difference.

PD

> and
> this situation arises when the idea that no preferred frame of
> reference exists is applied to the example. Since we know from
> experiment that time dilation is real, the only remaining assumption
> is that of the non-existence of a preferred frame of reference; i.e
> that assumption is false because it results in a paradox.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -




Date Subject Author
6/26/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
6/26/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
6/26/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Peter Webb
6/29/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
artful
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Androcles
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/3/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/3/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
eric gisse
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/11/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/11/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/11/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/11/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/11/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
eric gisse
7/12/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/12/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/12/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/12/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/13/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
6/29/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
6/29/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
artful
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/3/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/9/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Ken Seto
7/9/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
eric gisse
7/10/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
6/29/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
6/29/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Androcles
7/3/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/10/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/10/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/10/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/3/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
hanson
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
whoever
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Peter Webb
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
hanson
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
whoever
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
eric gisse
7/11/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/11/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/12/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/12/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
6/29/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/3/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
whoever
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Cosmik Debris
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Androcles
7/10/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/11/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Ken Seto
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
6/30/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
6/30/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
whoever
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/11/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
6/30/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/3/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/3/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/3/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
glbrad01
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
eric gisse
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
artful
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Ken Seto
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Androcles
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Aetherist
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Y.Porat
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/4/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
whoever
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/11/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/11/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Ken Seto
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Aetherist
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
eric gisse
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
hanson
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Aetherist
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Aetherist
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Tom Roberts
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/8/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Tom Roberts
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Androcles
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
whoever
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
J. Clarke
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
artful
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
J. Clarke
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
eric gisse
7/8/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/8/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/8/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/8/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/8/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Edward Green
7/8/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
6/30/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/5/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
artful
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/12/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
whoever
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
eric gisse
6/30/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
artful
6/30/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
6/30/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
artful
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
whoever
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Androcles
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
6/30/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
6/30/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
whoever
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
eric gisse
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
whoever
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
eric gisse
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
artful
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
artful
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
artful
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/3/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Daryl McCullough
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
artful
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/8/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/3/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/7/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Androcles
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Androcles
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
artful
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
artful
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
harald
7/2/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/1/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
colp
7/3/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
PD
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Koobee Wublee
7/6/10
Read Re: Preferred Frame Theory indistinguishable from SR
Peter Webb

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