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Topic: What are space and time?
Replies: 184   Last Post: Nov 19, 2012 9:14 PM

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jmfbahciv

Posts: 64
Registered: 5/6/10
Re: What are space and time?
Posted: Jul 23, 2010 9:27 AM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

Huang wrote:
> On Jul 22, 8:43 am, jmfbahciv <See.ab...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Huang wrote:
>> > On Jul 21, 7:54 am, jmfbahciv <See.ab...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >> [spit a newsgroup]
>>
>> >> Huang wrote:
>>
>> >> <snip
>>
>> >> > Starting with some preliminaries:
>>
>> >> > If one adopts the view of existential indeterminacy then you dont
>> >> > really have axioms which form the basis of mathematics. There should
>> >> > be a conjectural equivalent of every axiom, but strictly speaking
>> >> > there are no true axioms in the sense of mathematics.

>>
>> >> You don't have any idea what mathematics is.
>>
>> > And you have no idea what an axiom is.
>>
>> > I have never seen an axiom which ever said anything about quantities
>> > or objects or solutions which "may or mat not exist". Show me one such
>> > counterexample and then I will be forced to agree, otherwise I will
>> > assume that you'll be eating your words because to assume otherwise is
>> > really absurd.

>>
>> > If you start from the point of view that things "may or may not exist
>> > with existential potential say p" then you are going to have one very
>> > difficult time creating an axiom based on that because of course it is
>> > quite impossible.

>>
>> Sigh!  Not p.
>> \
>>
>>
>>

>> > I dont have any ideas what math is - indeed. lol
>>
>> No, you don't.  You have no idea how it's built, how it's used, nor
>> what it can't do.

>
>
> In mathematics things are proved.


Not all the time.

> The reason you can do this is
> because everything exists very nicely and the whole stupid thing fits
> together like Lego building blocks,


You have never built a geometry nor an algebra. Did you ever go through
the exercise of proving the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus? Did you
ever take a plane geometry class which did proof by construction?


>and ever piece fits perfect. That
> is mathematics.



It only fits perfect because you've only looked at algebras and
geometries which other people have built over the years.

>
> Conjecture is diferent. You begin by saying not "what exists", but
> "what might exist". Conjectures are NEVER proved to be true because
> they are and must remain conjectural.


This has nothing to do with measuring mass with a ruler.

> But you CAN show that
> conjectures are consistent,


Not all conjectures. There are hundreds of thousands of conjectures
which don't work.


> and so all of these conjectures fit
> together like Lego building blocks as well. In fact, for every
> mathematical statement there is a corresponding conjectural statement
> and vice versa.


You are talking nonsense. You are assuming everything is commutative.


>There is no mathematical way to transform back and
> forth between the two, such operations are currently under study but
> to be sure - I do know what math is and what it is not. I also believe
> that there are tools other than math which can accomplish the same
> things that math does.


Huh? Name one.
>
>> >> >Futher, I dont
>> >> > want to fall back on axioms or their equivalent because that could be
>> >> > seen as a kind of philosophical cop-out.

>>
>> >> This is just your high-falutin excuse to not do any work.  All
>> >> endeavors require a starting point, including pissing in the toilet
>> >> and eating your breakfast.

>>
>> >> You still have not defined mass using only space and time nor
>> >> shown how to measure it with a ruler.

>>
>> >> <snip>
>>
>> >> /BAH
>>
>> > I dont give an F an out defining mass with a damn ruler - the man said
>> > he wanted an explanation of PlanckLength from my point of view and
>> > that's what I provided.

>>
>> For you to make the declaration you did, then you must provide a method
>> of defining mass with a ruler.  Since you cannot, your premise that
>> all existence can be described using only space and time is wrong.
>> If you want to do science, you have to test your hypotheses; testing
>> requires measurement and the ability to create an experiment
>> which will  falsify your hypothesis.
>>
>> You ain't doing science; you're just blowing gas.

>
>
>
> Define mass in terms of length - eh ?



No. Measure it using a ruler. It is you who made declaration
that you can describe this using only space and time. So you
are the one who has to provide the mechanism for measuring
in the labs. I susggested that you show how to measure mass.
You still have not demonstrated a way to use a ruler to do this.

>
> Ok - there are many ways to do this


I just want you to describe one way.

> depending on how precise you want
> to make it. If you want an exact derivation you'll never get it
> because it's not calculable, would require too much computing power
> which does not exist at this time and probably never will.


Forget about this smoke and mirrors. You can't do it; can you?

>
> However, if we allow (for brevity) to model objects more coarsely we
> can come up with some decent models. Instead of considering every
> individual atom, just consider a planet as a whole and skip all of the
> fine structure.
>
> A planet may then be regarded (in my model) as a gradient. The
> gradient is comprised of a potential, and to each point in space we
> assign a potential that the point exists.


What the hell does potential have to do with mass? I haven't got
as far a electricity. I just want you to demonstrate something
basic so a Physics 101 lab can do a experiment.


>That gives rise to this
> gradient. Consider that the nucleus of the planet is enriched, and the
> areas in it's outer shells are rarified. A planet (or atom) is nothing
> more than an imbalance as described. It is composed of nothing more
> than dimension. Enriched in it's core, and rarified at the periphery.
> It should be obvious that two such bodies which are near to each other
> create a "well" between them, and they will naturally be attracted to
> each other because that is how space is bent. Objects will tend to
> fall into such a depression, and both objects are creating a
> depression in the fabric of spacetime because the regions on their
> periphery is existentially rarified like a vacuum which decreases
> exactly as described elsewhere in physics where orthodox mathematics
> is being used, and I repeat that I have used no math here.


Obviously. YOu have also ignored my request. You haven't talked
about mass, let alone how to measure it with a ruler.

> Only set
> the stage for modelling conjecturally.
>


And your stage is completely engulfed in manufactured fog.

/BAH


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merryflip

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