On Jul 11, 11:15 am, Marshall <marshall.spi...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 11, 4:56 am, Tony Orlow <t...@lightlink.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 11, 3:21 am, Marshall <marshall.spi...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jul 10, 9:00 pm, Tony Orlow <t...@lightlink.com> wrote: > > > > > Well, you certainly didn't answer the question, and never have, > > > > because you can't. > > > > The question has been answered about a thousand times. > > > You confuse an answer you don't like with the lack of an answer. > > > > > You like to spew a lot of verbiage without really > > > > addressing the question. > > > > Moe addresses your questions head on, Mr. Lepidopteran. > > > > > Further, this is a result supposedly resting > > > > on the brilliance of ZFC and the Mighty von Neumann Ordinals. > > > > Neither one is mentioned in the balls-and-vase problem. > > > > > So, your > > > > response, while not nonexistent, is essentially without substance. > > > > You want the truth? You can't handle the truth! > > > > As to your question "When do the balls, which are in the vase before > > > noon, and which do not move at noon, disappear?" the answer > > > is given in the problem statement. Each ball is removed from the > > > vase (they don't "disappear") at a different time. For any given > > > ball, the time of its removal is specified by a simple formula. > > > > Marshall > > > Again, a non-answer to a simple question which points out the > > nonsensical nature of the problem itself. > > You may have objections to my answer, but an answer it remains.
No, it's not an answer to this question. At what time does the vase become empty?
> > > Balls are in the vase at > > every moment in (11:59, 12:00). At 12:00 nothing happens - no ball > > moves. It is your contention that there are no balls left at noon > > because every ball is removed "by" noon, but by the only reasonable > > definition of and event occurring "by noon", it either occurs *before* > > noon, or *at* noon. So, which is it? When does the vase become empty? > > http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1188/12611440650874507914.gif
You just want me to "stop this shit"? Well, that's a pretty reasonable response, gee, isn't it?
Answer the question, or stop sticking your thumb in your nose and blaming me when you smell shit.
> > > If there is no clear answer to this question, then something is wrong > > with your concept of time in this case, thanks to Zeno, and the > > problem itself makes no sense. > > There *is* a clear answer. Your mental rigidity in requiring the > answer to adhere to certain personal criteria of yours prevents > you from understanding it. You know that clingy, attachment > feeling you get when you think about this problem? Drop > it, and you'll become free. All you have to lose is your ignorance. > All that will break is your delusion of being better than other > people. Try it. The change is painful, but what's on the other > side feels much, much better than what you have now. > > Marshall
You should take your own advice. Like Brian, you can only understand the problem from the per-ball perspective. You cannot wrap your ossified mind around the simple fact that the event of the state of the vase going from full to empty does not occur at any time in the given interval. It might hurt a little to find that your "obvious" answer has a hole in it, but the logical objection to your rigidly aped understanding of the problem is quite simple and undeniable. There is no time when the vase CAN become empty, and this points to a problem with the concept of completing the full range of finite values without entering the infinite. When you can grasp this simple fact, rather than counting balls like beans in a myopic fashion, then you will experience an actually spiritual change in your thinking, and won't resort to silly pics like the one linked above. You might as well have thrown your crayons at me.
