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Topic: information theory?
Replies: 83   Last Post: Dec 22, 2011 5:14 AM

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Rich Delaney

Posts: 392
Registered: 12/13/04
Re: information theory?
Posted: Dec 21, 2011 8:49 PM
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On Nov 4, Martin Brown <|||newspam...@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > He estimated music contains 40 bits/second entropy.
> > How close is MP3 to that?

>
> >___________________________________
> >I doubt surprised Shannon said that, and if he did its
> >somewhere between meaningless and wrong.

>
> >CD quality mp3s are roughly equivalent to 178 kbps,
> >over 4,000 times his estimate. But then you can
> >encode a lot of sounds that most people would not
> >consider music. And it stereo, so you can halve it
> > if Shannon was talking about mono.

>
> Have you never seen sheet music? That is what
> Shannon was estimating - the bitrate for describing
> music in the abstract.
> There are a finite number of notes, durations and
> amplitudes in a classical composition.


I suspect that's the case.

> I suspect 40 bits/sec is still far too tight,
> but a midi stream using a high end reconstruction
> codec represents a pretty good
> example of what is possible by way of compression
> for *music* as opposed to voice or a random noise
> stream.
>

> > To get a smaller figure for music, you have to
> > define what subsets of sounds are music. Lots of luck.


Not so hard, if you analyze samples of what we label 'music'.

> I think that may have been his intention although
> I don't recall seeing the 40 bit/s number
> As I said if he did anything I think he was estimating
> the information content of music in the already
> concise form of an orchestral score.


That appears to be the case.

> I reckon at a bare minimum about 7 to the note, 8 to
> amplitude, 6 duration, 5 to the instrument - and it
> is already obvious that you cannot encode more than a
> single note per second at this bitrate.


You fail to account for the essential concept
of correlation.

> Can anyone provide a citation to this alleged paper
> on music bitrate?



I found the reference in John Pierce's book.
It's not attributed to Shannon. My boner.
He claims a humans can absorb information,
e.g. reading or music, at 40 bits/second.
He also cites a paper where it's claimed that
sheet music contains 2.5 bits entropy per note.
This supports the MIDI model, as opposed to
digitization of a recording. In that case,
what is the bit rate? Though the question of
chords arises, with much redundancy there.

It also raises the possibility that recorded
music might be adequately represented by a
MIDI stream.


--
Rich


--
Rich



Date Subject Author
10/31/11
Read information theory?
Rich Delaney
11/1/11
Read Re: information theory?
Eric Jacobsen
11/1/11
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Chris
11/1/11
Read Re: information theory?
Rich Delaney
11/1/11
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jim
11/1/11
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jim
11/1/11
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Cindy
11/1/11
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BJACOBY@teranews.com
11/2/11
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jim
11/2/11
Read Re: information theory?
BJACOBY@teranews.com
11/2/11
Read Re: information theory?
jim
11/2/11
Read Re: information theory?
Cindy
11/2/11
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jim
11/3/11
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Cindy
11/1/11
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BJACOBY@teranews.com
11/2/11
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Les Cargill
11/3/11
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Andrew Haley
11/3/11
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gdewilde@gmail.com
11/2/11
Read Re: information theory?
Martin Brown
11/2/11
Read Re: information theory? (copyright question followup)
JohnF
11/2/11
Read Re: information theory? (copyright question followup)
Martin Brown
11/2/11
Read Re: information theory? (copyright question followup)
Martin Brown
11/2/11
Read Re: information theory? (copyright question followup)
Bernd Jendrissek
11/2/11
Read Re: information theory? (copyright question followup)
David Eather
11/2/11
Read Re: information theory? (copyright question followup)
Bill Unruh
11/24/11
Read Re: information theory? (copyright question followup)
J. Clarke
11/24/11
Read Re: information theory? (copyright question followup)
Martin Brown
11/25/11
Read Re: information theory? (copyright question followup)
Richard Outerbridge
11/25/11
Read Re: information theory? (copyright question followup)
Les Cargill
11/2/11
Read Re: information theory?
Rich Delaney
11/3/11
Read Re: information theory?
Martin Brown
11/2/11
Read Re: information theory?
Chris
11/2/11
Read Re: information theory?
robert bristow-johnson
11/2/11
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Rich Delaney
11/2/11
Read Re: information theory?
VWWall
11/2/11
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Richard Outerbridge
11/4/11
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Frederick Williams
11/4/11
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krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
11/4/11
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jim
11/4/11
Read Re: information theory?
Jerry Avins
11/4/11
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Greg Rose
11/5/11
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Frederick Williams
11/5/11
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Mike Terry
11/5/11
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MrTallyman
11/5/11
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R Kym Horsell
11/5/11
Read Re: information theory?
MrTallyman
11/5/11
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unruh
11/5/11
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krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
11/7/11
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JW
11/7/11
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krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
11/7/11
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MrTallyman
11/7/11
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krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
11/4/11
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FigureItOut
11/6/11
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jim
11/4/11
Read Re: information theory?
Rich Delaney
11/4/11
Read Re: information theory?
BJACOBY@teranews.com
11/4/11
Read Re: information theory?
Peter Webb
11/4/11
Read Re: information theory?
robertwessel2@yahoo.com
11/4/11
Read Re: information theory?
R Kym Horsell
11/4/11
Read Re: information theory?
Peter Webb
11/4/11
Read Re: information theory?
VWWall
11/4/11
Read Re: information theory?
jim
11/4/11
Read Re: information theory?
jim
11/4/11
Read Re: information theory?
Androcles
11/4/11
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Martin Brown
11/4/11
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Peter Webb
11/4/11
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BJACOBY@teranews.com
11/4/11
Read Re: information theory?
Jerry Avins
12/21/11
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Rich Delaney
12/21/11
Read Re: information theory?
Les Cargill
12/22/11
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Richard Outerbridge
12/22/11
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Martin Brown
12/22/11
Read Re: information theory?
Peter Webb
11/4/11
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Androcles
11/4/11
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Casper H.S. Dik
11/4/11
Read Re: information theory?
Bill Unruh
11/6/11
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jim
11/7/11
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jim
11/7/11
Read Re: information theory?
jim
11/8/11
Read Re: information theory?
jim
11/8/11
Read Re: information theory?
Michael A. Terrell
11/3/11
Read Re: information theory?
BJACOBY@teranews.com
11/3/11
Read Re: information theory?
Chris
11/3/11
Read Re: information theory?
Chris

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