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Topic: [math-learn] Re: FCI and CCI in China #2
Replies: 50   Last Post: Jan 27, 2012 8:17 PM

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Jerry Epstein

Posts: 61
Registered: 12/3/04
Re: [math-learn] Re: FCI and CCI in China #2
Posted: Jan 22, 2012 10:47 PM
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I would add to Richard's interesting post that it is far from clear, and
partly a matter of definition, as to whether the Chinese students were
indeed NOT in Interactive-Engagement (IE) classes. By "classes" I think
we must mean the time spent in structured learning situations. This is
clearly something that I, and I hope others, will seriously investigate.
Richar'd comments on the fact that Chinese students have been asked to
operate at a higher cognitive level than American students for some
years is quite meaningful. But we must also keep in mind, that the time
spent in the lecture is in general less than half of the time they spend
in learning structured situations. It has been heavily documented that
Chinese students, at many levels form the habit of spending extra hours
with friends and classmates in small group work and discussion on
homework problems and on class content. My strong working hypothesis is
that this is a major part of the observed difference.

Jerry Epstein


On 1/22/2012 9:42 PM, Richard Hake wrote:
>
> Some subscribers to Math-Learn might be interested in a recent
> discussion-list post "Re: FCI and CCI in China #2" [Hake (2012)].
> The abstract reads:
>
> ***********************************************
> ABSTRACT: PhysLrnR's Jerry Epstein wrote (paraphrasing): "The
> Calculus Concept Inventory (CCI) has been given to about 1000
> university students enrolled in a TEACHER-CENTERED calculus course in
> Shanghai, China. Their average normalized gains <g> were about
> two-standard deviations above those of U.S. university calculus
> courses, possibly due to student-organized out-of-class interactive
> group work."
>
> Craig Ogilvie responded: "Are there FCI (Force Concept Inventory)
> gains reported for a similar group of students/physics courses in
> China? It would support your hypothesis if they also showed high
> gains for non-IE pedagogy." Here IE = "Interactive Engagement,"
> *operationally* defined [Hake (1998a)] as "those designed at least in
> part to promote conceptual understanding through the active
> engagement of students in heads-on (always) and hands-on (usually)
> activities that yield immediate feedback through discussion with
> peers and/or instructors."
>
> David Meltzer then pointed to the research of Bao et al. on FCI
> pretest scores of Chinese and U.S. freshmen university students
> enrolled in science/engineering major courses, whose publication in
> the "Science" article "Learning and Scientific Reasoning: Comparisons
> of Chinese and U.S. Students" at <http://bit.ly/90sdAG> has been
> widely publicized.
>
> Although Bao et al. measured only pretest scores (not pre-to-posttest
> gains) for Chinese freshmen university students enrolled in
> science/engineering major courses, they pointed out that those
> students had taken "algebra-based courses with emphasis on
> development of conceptual understanding and skills needed to solve
> problems" for FIVE YEARS in grades 8-12, whereas the U.S. students
> had taken at most ONE YEAR of physics.
>
> That suggests that the Chinese K-12 math curriculum might also be
> more intensive than that in the U.S. IF that's the case then it
> might help to explain the relatively high CCI gains for non-IE
> pedagogy, irrespective of possible student-organized out-of-class
> interactive group work.
> ***********************************************
>
> To access the complete 16 kB post please click on <http://bit.ly/zz7WXk>
>
> Richard Hake, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Indiana University
> Honorary Member, Curmudgeon Lodge of Deventer, The Netherlands
> President, PEdants for Definitive Academic References which Recognize the
> Invention of the Internet (PEDARRII)
> <rrhake@earthlink.net <mailto:rrhake%40earthlink.net>>
> <http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~hake
> <http://www.physics.indiana.edu/%7Ehake>>
> <http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~sdi
> <http://www.physics.indiana.edu/%7Esdi>>
> <http://HakesEdStuff.blogspot.com>
> <http://iub.academia.edu/RichardHake>
>
> REFERENCES [URL shortened by <http://bit.ly/> and accessed on 22 Jan
> 2012.]
> Hake, R.R. 2012. "Re: FCI and CCI in China #2 online on the OPEN!
> AERA-L archives at <http://bit.ly/zz7WXk>. Post of 22 Jan 2012
> 16:27:43-0800 to AERA-L and Net-Gold. The abstract and link to the
> complete post are being transmitted to several discussion lists and
> are also on my blog "Hake'sEdStuff" at <http://bit.ly/AbW5oy> with a
> provision for comments.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Date Subject Author
1/22/12
Read [math-learn] Re: FCI and CCI in China #2
Richard Hake
1/22/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Re: FCI and CCI in China #2
Jerry Epstein
1/22/12
Read Re: [math-learn] Re: FCI and CCI in China #2
Robert Hansen
1/22/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Robert Hansen
1/22/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Jerry Epstein
1/23/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Robert Hansen
1/22/12
Read RE: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
John Clement
1/23/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Robert Hansen
1/23/12
Read RE: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
John Clement
1/23/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Robert Hansen
1/23/12
Read RE: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
John Clement
1/23/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Jerry Epstein
1/23/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Robert Hansen
1/23/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Jerry Epstein
1/24/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Robert Hansen
1/24/12
Read RE: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
John Clement
1/24/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Robert Hansen
1/24/12
Read RE: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
John Clement
1/24/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
timotha@comcast.net
1/24/12
Read RE: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
John Clement
1/25/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
timotha@comcast.net
1/25/12
Read RE: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
John Clement
1/25/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Jerry Epstein
1/25/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Jerry Epstein
1/25/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Robert Hansen
1/25/12
Read RE: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
John Clement
1/25/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Robert Hansen
1/25/12
Read RE: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
John Clement
1/25/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Jerry Epstein
1/26/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Ed Wall
1/26/12
Read RE: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
John Clement
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Ed Wall
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI --where from here?
Jerry Epstein
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI --where from here?
Ed Wall
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI --where from here?
Jerry Epstein
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI --where from here?
Robert Hansen
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
timotha@comcast.net
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Ed Wall
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Robert Hansen
1/27/12
Read RE: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
John Clement
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Jerry Epstein
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Ed Wall
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Jerry Epstein
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Robert Hansen
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Ed Wall
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Jerry Epstein
1/27/12
Read RE: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
John Clement
1/27/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Robert Hansen
1/27/12
Read RE: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
John Clement
1/25/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Jerry Epstein
1/25/12
Read Re: [math-learn] FCI and CCI in China #2
Jerry Epstein

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