Drexel dragonThe Math ForumDonate to the Math Forum



Search All of the Math Forum:

Views expressed in these public forums are not endorsed by Drexel University or The Math Forum.


Math Forum » Discussions » Education » math-teach

Topic: How Bad it Is
Replies: 69   Last Post: Jun 18, 2012 8:02 PM

Advanced Search

Back to Topic List Back to Topic List Jump to Tree View Jump to Tree View   Messages: [ Previous | Next ]
Robert Hansen

Posts: 7,573
From: Florida
Registered: 6/22/09
Re: How Bad it Is
Posted: May 30, 2012 7:48 PM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

Oh, well, most everything in your post wasn't like anything I said , or Kirby said, so I thought you were talking to someone else, like Jk. I wasn't even talking about forced integration, that was something else entirely, and had nothing to do with women, or college. Maybe Kirby was talking about something else, but I thought it was clear that we were comparing integration, the end of the discriminatory practice of segregation, with the discriminatory practice of affirmative action. Forced integration didn't happen in college, it happened in high school, and while it was a mess, I don't think it had much to do with the educational fraud and disaster we face now. In fact, you hardly even hear a mention of it any more. Also, I went to (public) school during forced integration, affirmative action didn't infect high school till a couple decades later. Discrimination is just bad strategy no matter how you look at it.

If you remember awhile back, Lou had asked me a question about the quality of college students 40 years ago, actually, it was a statement, which to the my mind is just like a question (of why). He stated that the quality of college students was just as poor 40 years ago. I don't believe it was "just as poor". Lou is old school and still uses the "70% is a C" scale (kudos Lou). I am not sure he is fully aware that his scale is almost 40 percentage points higher than the scale used in many colleges today. But I accept the essence of his statement that the quality of the students was poor.

But what was really troubling me when I began my quest was the quality of high school classes, not college classes. Particularly the AP Calculus classes (and then later the Algebra classes). After much digging I at least was able to quantify the drop. I found (via old cutoff scores and results) that a 3 in my day is about a 4.5 today and most of that delta occurred from 1985 to 2000 That alone would represent over a 20% drop and if you add to this the fact that 15 to 20% more students got a 3 or better then than now, the whole drop is something like 35%. And then there is the staggering 25% of students that get a 1. If that had happened at my high school I think the first thing the guidance counselor would do (assuming she wasn't fired on the spot) would be to ask for the registration form to see if there was a misprint causing so many students to register for the wrong class. But not today. These kids have a future. In 6 years from now, they will work at Starbucks and owe $50,000 in student loans.

So I succeeded in finally getting my mind around the scope of the failure but damn if I could find why it started. Until Lou made that statement. I was looking at it wrong. There was no motive for high schools to blow up their AP classes, and they were having enough problems with their algebra classes (which they eventually blew up later). It was the colleges with all their new students failing calculus, which prompted the Harvard reform which prompted the AP curriculum realignment, which resulted in more failure, which was mitigated with even lower standards, etc, etc. etc.

Bob Hansen


On May 30, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Paul Tanner <upprho@gmail.com> wrote:

> Robert, I was talking about your claim that affirmative action is the
> cause of an alleged beginning of the downfall of the US - that is a
> racist claim.
>
> First, affirmative action is set up such that only those minorities
> who meet qualifications are the beneficiaries of the affirmation
> action.
>
> But since you no doubt deny what I just said:
>
> Your claim is equivalent to saying that the standards were lowered to
> allow what you claim are unqualified minorities "in the room". And
> therefore by what you claim the only way to have integration of blacks
> and other minorities into a formerly whites-only situation and not
> lower standards is to have some sort of "entrance test" that must be
> passed by the minorities to make sure that letting them "in the room"
> with the whites does not lower the standards of a formerly whites-only
> situation. But that was not done with integration in k12. With
> integration in k12, all blacks and other minorities were let "in the
> room" with the whites. But by what you say, to avoid the powering of
> standards in the formerly whites-only schools, there should have been
> entrance exams given to blacks and other minorities that they had to
> pass before they were allowed into formerly whites-only schools. And
> so, by what you say, forced integration in k12 let "in the room" a
> bunch of unqualified blacks and other minorities. That's racist. That
> is, this proves that you are trying to have it both ways when you say
> that forced integration is good but affirmative action is causing the
> downfall of the US.
>
> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Robert Hansen <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:

>> Jk, I think Paul is wanting a dialog with you.
>>
>> On May 30, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Paul Tanner wrote:
>>

>>> Here we go again: More comments at math-teach with racist implications
>>> by certain individuals at math-teach.
>>>
>>> You're trying to have it both ways with your claim that integration is
>>> good but affirmative action is bad.
>>>
>>> You blame affirmative action for an alleged beginning of "the downfall
>>> of the US".
>>>
>>> Put bluntly, that's you saying that allowing all those blacks and
>>> Hispanics and other non-East-Asian people of color "in the room" that
>>> you claim were not qualified to be "in the room" because (as you
>>> claim) their "being in the room" lowered standards is what "started
>>> the downfall of the US".
>>>
>>> Don't you see that integration is a form of affirmative action? Don't
>>> you see that integration is a form of allowing all those blacks and
>>> Hispanics and other non-East-Asian people of color "in the room" that
>>> you claim were not qualified to be "in the room" because (as you
>>> claim) their "being in the room" lowered standards - where the room in
>>> question in education is the formerly white college classroom and
>>> formerly while k12 classroom?
>>>
>>> To see that integration and affirmative action are connected, the
>>> reader perhaps needs to be reminded of history:
>>>
>>> Remember George Wallace? Remember how he literally stood at the door
>>> at the University of Alabama and non-literally at the doors of those
>>> four elementary schools in Alabama to try to stop the affirmative
>>> action of those people of color from being "in the room" at
>>> universities and in the k12 schools in Alabama? Wallace and the other
>>> racists clearly understood that integration in education was the
>>> affirmative action of allowing all those blacks and Hispanics and
>>> other non-East-Asian people of color "in the room" that they (the
>>> racists) claimed were not qualified to be "in the room" because (as
>>> they claimed) their "being in the room" lowered standards.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wallace#Segregation
>>>
>>> Quote:
>>>
>>> "Wallace was elected governor in a landslide victory in November 1962.
>>> He took the oath of office on January 14, 1963, standing on the gold
>>> star marking the spot where, nearly 102 years earlier, Jefferson Davis
>>> was sworn in as provisional president of the Confederate States of
>>> America. In his inaugural speech, Wallace used the line for which he
>>> is best known:
>>>
>>> ?In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth [he
>>> is talking about American whites], I draw the line in the dust and
>>> toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation
>>> now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.[16][17] ?
>>>
>>> The line, based on a quote from Hebrews 13:8: "Jesus Christ the same
>>> yesterday, today, forever",[18] was written by Wallace's new
>>> speechwriter, Asa Earl Carter.
>>>
>>> In a vain attempt to halt desegregation by the enrollment of black
>>> students Vivian Malone and James Hood, he stood in front of Foster
>>> Auditorium at the University of Alabama on June 11, 1963. This became
>>> known as the "Stand in the Schoolhouse Door". After being confronted
>>> by federal marshals, Deputy Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach, and
>>> the Alabama Army National Guard, he stepped aside.
>>>
>>> In September 1963, Wallace again attempted to stop four black students
>>> from enrolling in four separate elementary schools in Huntsville.
>>> After intervention by a federal court in Birmingham, the four children
>>> were allowed to enter on September 9, becoming the first to integrate
>>> a primary or secondary school in Alabama.[19][20]
>>>
>>> Wallace desperately wanted to preserve segregation. In his own words:
>>> "The President (John F. Kennedy) wants us to surrender this state to
>>> Martin Luther King and his group of pro-communists who have instituted
>>> these demonstrations."[21]"
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Robert Hansen <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:

>>>>
>>>> On May 30, 2012, at 11:30 AM, kirby urner wrote:
>>>>

>>>>> Bob Hansen:
>>>>>

>>>>>> If we were to name the "thing" that harmed the institution of education the most, it would have to be affirmative action.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're talking about affirmative action and not school integration
>>>>> right? Integration and affirmative action are not the same concept.

>>>>
>>>> Right. Actually, they are opposites. One is anti discriminatory and the other is pro.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> Opening the schools to "minorities" also brought in women, not just
>>>>> "non white" people.

>>>>
>>>> And again, that wasn't affirmative action. That was anti discrimination.
>>>>
>>>>

>>>>> Is affirmative action to blame w/r to any specific minority or is it
>>>>> just the whole idea of counter-balancing advantages (scholarships
>>>>> etc.).

>>>>
>>>> The idea of discrimination is to blame.
>>>>
>>>> I am not blaming any minorities. It wasn't their fault. It was the colleges that began the practice but I think colleges were caught off guard by the rapidity that the civil rights movement succeeded and how rapidly the idea of blatant discrimination became ugly to society. In a panic to mitigate their own ugliness they started lowering the standards everywhere, hiring their own graduates, etc, etc.. They mucked things up pretty good, didn't they. You would think this would call for an investigation, like the banking crisis. I still don't get what they were thinking when they started doing it. I think they thought they were god at some point.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Hansen



Date Subject Author
5/28/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/28/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Anna Roys
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Gary Tupper
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Anna Roys
5/28/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/4/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/4/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/4/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
6/7/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Wayne Bishop
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Pam
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
israeliteknight
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
israeliteknight
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
6/18/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
6/18/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/18/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim

Point your RSS reader here for a feed of the latest messages in this topic.

[Privacy Policy] [Terms of Use]

© Drexel University 1994-2014. All Rights Reserved.
The Math Forum is a research and educational enterprise of the Drexel University School of Education.