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Topic: How Bad it Is
Replies: 69   Last Post: Jun 18, 2012 8:02 PM

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Robert Hansen

Posts: 8,206
From: Florida
Registered: 6/22/09
Re: How Bad it Is
Posted: May 30, 2012 11:49 PM
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When you say forced integration I am thinking bussing. Was the end of slavery forced freedom? Nobody forced anyone to go to any school. They forced the school to accept applicants with EQUAL preference regardless of race. Affirmative action is the opposite of that.

Bob Hansen


On May 30, 2012, at 11:19 PM, Paul Tanner <upprho@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Robert Hansen <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:
>> Forced integration didn't happen in college,
>
> ???
>
> You do not know history!
>
> George Wallace was the poster boy for the racist reply for forced
> integration in college!
>
> See my post in this thread
>
> http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=7830771
>
> for more!
>

>> it happened in high school, and while it was a mess, I don't think it had much to do with the educational fraud and disaster we face now. In fact, you hardly even hear a mention of it any more. Also, I went to (public) school during forced integration, affirmative action didn't infect high school till a couple decades later.
>>

>
> But forced integration was a form of affirmative action!
>
> See my post above.
>

>> But what was really troubling me when I began my quest was the quality of high school classes, not college classes. Particularly the AP Calculus classes (and then later the Algebra classes). After much digging I at least was able to quantify the drop. I found (via old cutoff scores and results) that a 3 in my day is about a 4.5 today and most of that delta occurred from 1985 to 2000.
>>

> ...
>>
> There was no motive for high schools to blow up their AP classes, and
> they were having enough problems with their algebra classes (which
> they eventually blew up later). It was the colleges with all their new
> students failing calculus, which prompted the Harvard reform which
> prompted the AP curriculum realignment, which resulted in more
> failure, which was mitigated with even lower standards, etc, etc. etc.

>>
>
> The sky is falling only in your own imagination. There is no way in
> hell that the sky is falling in AP Calculus while in 2000 - the year
> you say above the sky fell - we have that scientific study showing
> that those AP Calculus students who took an AP calculus exam - even
> those who failed it - blow away the entire world that took TIMSS
> Advanced in either 1995 or 2008. That is, since they posted higher
> scores than the rest of the world, if the best of the rest of the
> world posted scores that were respectable, then with all the more
> force so did those AP Calculus students in question, and that is not a
> falling sky.
>
> To the reader: Further down in my post
>
> "Re: Discussion: Do US Math Teachers Suck?"
> http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?messageID=7752982&tstart=0
>
> you can see the truth I speak about AP Calculus students that take the
> AP tests - the sky is not falling, and the whole post shows that the
> sky is not falling for the US educational system as a whole. (When a
> majority of US students post an average score higher than almost all
> of the rest of the world, the sky is not falling.)
>

>>
>> Bob Hansen
>>
>>
>> On May 30, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Paul Tanner <upprho@gmail.com> wrote:
>>

>>> Robert, I was talking about your claim that affirmative action is the
>>> cause of an alleged beginning of the downfall of the US - that is a
>>> racist claim.
>>>
>>> First, affirmative action is set up such that only those minorities
>>> who meet qualifications are the beneficiaries of the affirmation
>>> action.
>>>
>>> But since you no doubt deny what I just said:
>>>
>>> Your claim is equivalent to saying that the standards were lowered to
>>> allow what you claim are unqualified minorities "in the room". And
>>> therefore by what you claim the only way to have integration of blacks
>>> and other minorities into a formerly whites-only situation and not
>>> lower standards is to have some sort of "entrance test" that must be
>>> passed by the minorities to make sure that letting them "in the room"
>>> with the whites does not lower the standards of a formerly whites-only
>>> situation. But that was not done with integration in k12. With
>>> integration in k12, all blacks and other minorities were let "in the
>>> room" with the whites. But by what you say, to avoid the powering of
>>> standards in the formerly whites-only schools, there should have been
>>> entrance exams given to blacks and other minorities that they had to
>>> pass before they were allowed into formerly whites-only schools. And
>>> so, by what you say, forced integration in k12 let "in the room" a
>>> bunch of unqualified blacks and other minorities. That's racist. That
>>> is, this proves that you are trying to have it both ways when you say
>>> that forced integration is good but affirmative action is causing the
>>> downfall of the US.
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Robert Hansen <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:

>>>> Jk, I think Paul is wanting a dialog with you.
>>>>
>>>> On May 30, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Paul Tanner wrote:
>>>>

>>>>> Here we go again: More comments at math-teach with racist implications
>>>>> by certain individuals at math-teach.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're trying to have it both ways with your claim that integration is
>>>>> good but affirmative action is bad.
>>>>>
>>>>> You blame affirmative action for an alleged beginning of "the downfall
>>>>> of the US".
>>>>>
>>>>> Put bluntly, that's you saying that allowing all those blacks and
>>>>> Hispanics and other non-East-Asian people of color "in the room" that
>>>>> you claim were not qualified to be "in the room" because (as you
>>>>> claim) their "being in the room" lowered standards is what "started
>>>>> the downfall of the US".
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't you see that integration is a form of affirmative action? Don't
>>>>> you see that integration is a form of allowing all those blacks and
>>>>> Hispanics and other non-East-Asian people of color "in the room" that
>>>>> you claim were not qualified to be "in the room" because (as you
>>>>> claim) their "being in the room" lowered standards - where the room in
>>>>> question in education is the formerly white college classroom and
>>>>> formerly while k12 classroom?
>>>>>
>>>>> To see that integration and affirmative action are connected, the
>>>>> reader perhaps needs to be reminded of history:
>>>>>
>>>>> Remember George Wallace? Remember how he literally stood at the door
>>>>> at the University of Alabama and non-literally at the doors of those
>>>>> four elementary schools in Alabama to try to stop the affirmative
>>>>> action of those people of color from being "in the room" at
>>>>> universities and in the k12 schools in Alabama? Wallace and the other
>>>>> racists clearly understood that integration in education was the
>>>>> affirmative action of allowing all those blacks and Hispanics and
>>>>> other non-East-Asian people of color "in the room" that they (the
>>>>> racists) claimed were not qualified to be "in the room" because (as
>>>>> they claimed) their "being in the room" lowered standards.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wallace#Segregation
>>>>>
>>>>> Quote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Wallace was elected governor in a landslide victory in November 1962.
>>>>> He took the oath of office on January 14, 1963, standing on the gold
>>>>> star marking the spot where, nearly 102 years earlier, Jefferson Davis
>>>>> was sworn in as provisional president of the Confederate States of
>>>>> America. In his inaugural speech, Wallace used the line for which he
>>>>> is best known:
>>>>>
>>>>> ?In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth [he
>>>>> is talking about American whites], I draw the line in the dust and
>>>>> toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation
>>>>> now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.[16][17] ?
>>>>>
>>>>> The line, based on a quote from Hebrews 13:8: "Jesus Christ the same
>>>>> yesterday, today, forever",[18] was written by Wallace's new
>>>>> speechwriter, Asa Earl Carter.
>>>>>
>>>>> In a vain attempt to halt desegregation by the enrollment of black
>>>>> students Vivian Malone and James Hood, he stood in front of Foster
>>>>> Auditorium at the University of Alabama on June 11, 1963. This became
>>>>> known as the "Stand in the Schoolhouse Door". After being confronted
>>>>> by federal marshals, Deputy Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach, and
>>>>> the Alabama Army National Guard, he stepped aside.
>>>>>
>>>>> In September 1963, Wallace again attempted to stop four black students
>>>>> from enrolling in four separate elementary schools in Huntsville.
>>>>> After intervention by a federal court in Birmingham, the four children
>>>>> were allowed to enter on September 9, becoming the first to integrate
>>>>> a primary or secondary school in Alabama.[19][20]
>>>>>
>>>>> Wallace desperately wanted to preserve segregation. In his own words:
>>>>> "The President (John F. Kennedy) wants us to surrender this state to
>>>>> Martin Luther King and his group of pro-communists who have instituted
>>>>> these demonstrations."[21]"
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Robert Hansen <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:

>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 30, 2012, at 11:30 AM, kirby urner wrote:
>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Bob Hansen:
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> If we were to name the "thing" that harmed the institution of education the most, it would have to be affirmative action.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're talking about affirmative action and not school integration
>>>>>>> right? Integration and affirmative action are not the same concept.

>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right. Actually, they are opposites. One is anti discriminatory and the other is pro.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Opening the schools to "minorities" also brought in women, not just
>>>>>>> "non white" people.

>>>>>>
>>>>>> And again, that wasn't affirmative action. That was anti discrimination.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Is affirmative action to blame w/r to any specific minority or is it
>>>>>>> just the whole idea of counter-balancing advantages (scholarships
>>>>>>> etc.).

>>>>>>
>>>>>> The idea of discrimination is to blame.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not blaming any minorities. It wasn't their fault. It was the colleges that began the practice but I think colleges were caught off guard by the rapidity that the civil rights movement succeeded and how rapidly the idea of blatant discrimination became ugly to society. In a panic to mitigate their own ugliness they started lowering the standards everywhere, hiring their own graduates, etc, etc.. They mucked things up pretty good, didn't they. You would think this would call for an investigation, like the banking crisis. I still don't get what they were thinking when they started doing it. I think they thought they were god at some point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob Hansen



Date Subject Author
5/28/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/28/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Anna Roys
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Gary Tupper
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Anna Roys
5/28/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/4/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/4/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/4/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
6/7/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Wayne Bishop
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Pam
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
israeliteknight
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
israeliteknight
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
6/18/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
6/18/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/18/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim

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