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Topic: How Bad it Is
Replies: 69   Last Post: Jun 18, 2012 8:02 PM

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Robert Hansen

Posts: 8,256
From: Florida
Registered: 6/22/09
Re: How Bad it Is
Posted: Jun 1, 2012 7:34 AM
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So anyways, as I was saying, to the college's dismay, discrimination based on race, became ugly very fast. Like smoking in public buildings. One day it was accepted and ashtrays are everywhere, offices, conference rooms, bathrooms and airplanes, and then all of a sudden, it is gone, and everyone, including smokers (after some griping), realize how nasty it actually was to be smoking in offices, conference rooms, bathrooms and airplanes. Society changed for the better. Likewise, the practice of having different sets of rules depending on skin color became (after some griping) nasty and unacceptable. Affirmative action, with its race based rules and quotas looked like a throwback to the 50's and 60's. The practice didn't sit well with society or the supreme court and under that pressure the colleges began to lower the standards wholesale for everyone to lessen the appearance of color based discrimination.

Eventually, the practice infected high school as well, but it took a relatively long time, a couple of decades at least. You see, while colleges were dealing with affirmative action, high schools were still dealing with segregation. In college, segregation was technically a very simple matter. Students choose the college they wish to attend and then they apply to that college. To end segregation in college all the college had to do was adopt color blindness and process these applications without reference to race. Easy peasy. In public (K-12) schools on the other hand, students are assigned to a school by the district they live in, and before integration, by color. So first they had to agree on the districts (there were two sets then) and then because of segregation in housing patterns we got bussing. It took a couple of decades just to find out what high school students were eventually assigned to. By the time high schools got to the party, which wasn't until the early 90's, affirmative action was already a pretty bad word.

By this time, colleges had already went through several iterations. First they adopted color blindness, ending discrimination and allowing blacks to apply to college. Then they went back to a state of discrimination and dropped color blindness for affirmative action. That didn't sit well with a society that had changed. That didn't even sit well with a lot of blacks. After court battles and the passage of several propositions, they realized that discrimination (affirmative action) was on its way out, it was just a matter of time, and so they started lowering the standards wholesale which brings us to the 90's, just about the same time high schools finally sorted out integration. So then the high schools started to lower standards, partly to align with colleges, partly to cover there failures with NCLB and because once you lie a few times and get away with it, it's hard to stop. At this time college started to become a bubble and grew faster than its real benefit which brings us to today where it is now a teetering disaster for millions of students.

And yet, even with this poor state that college is in now and the economic hardship befalling many of its graduates, we have a number of organizations like Achieve.org trying to sell more college.

Remember the mantra during the housing bubble? Two words. Home ownership. It became the battle cry of a number of organizations. Home ownership had all of these benefits like appreciation, building equity and lowering your taxes. People that own a house do better financially than those that do not. And then once the banks lowered the underwriting standards it became a fever. And, for awhile there, it seemed true. Previously, home ownership involved owning a home and owning a home involved having an income sufficient to pay the mortgage on the home. But during this fever it seemed that this was an outdated theory of home ownership, because lots of people with very little income were buying homes, and nothing bad was happening to them, YET.

So now we have a new bubble with a new two word mantra, college degree. People with college degrees have better jobs and earn more money. So now everyone must get a college degree. Of course, just like with home ownership and income, we are missing some details. Previously, to get a college degree you had to be smart or you had to have some marketable skill. Like home ownership stems from income (not the other way around) college stems from intelligence and skill (not the other way around). But once the words "college degree" became a battle cry, like home ownership, those pesky little details just got in the way and were dropped. And thus the fever starts and during the fever it seems like the requirements of intelligence and skill are outdated because lots of people with hardly any intelligence or skill are getting college degrees, and nothing bad is happening to them, YET.

We have just passed YET in the college thing. Watch.

Bob Hansen


On May 31, 2012, at 7:12 PM, Paul Tanner <upprho@gmail.com> wrote:

> First, forced integration is ending segregation in all its forms,
> including forcing white business owners to let blacks use the
> facilities along with whites.
>
> And as I showed throughout the further below, affirmative action is
> not the opposite of that, but intimately connected to that. Your
> racist claim is that American greatness is being destroyed by what you
> claim is the lowering of minimum standards caused by what you claim is
> "allowing in the room" unqualified minorities - never mind that what
> you say affirmative action is, it is not: It is not the allowing
> "allowing in the room" of unqualified minorities since affirmative
> action is about forcing those who control "the door to the room" must
> "allow anyone who meets the minimum standards to enter the room"
> regardless of race. And when there isn't room for everyone so
> qualified to be in one of those "rooms", then it has to as it is with
> integration in the schools - certain statistical tests have to be met
> in terms of percentages, and this is the connection between
> affirmative action and forced integration in the schools.
>
> And nobody forced anyone to go to any school? You are wrong. In most
> states it's called compulsory education up to age 16. And not everyone
> can go to any school they want. There isn't room for everyone to go to
> some schools, and so you have to go where you're told to go if you
> can't get into the school you want.
>
> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 11:49 PM, Robert Hansen <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:

>> When you say forced integration I am thinking bussing. Was the end of slavery forced freedom? Nobody forced anyone to go to any school. They forced the school to accept applicants with EQUAL preference regardless of race. Affirmative action is the opposite of that.
>>
>> Bob Hansen
>>
>>
>> On May 30, 2012, at 11:19 PM, Paul Tanner <upprho@gmail.com> wrote:
>>

>>> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Robert Hansen <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:
>>>> Forced integration didn't happen in college,
>>>
>>> ???
>>>
>>> You do not know history!
>>>
>>> George Wallace was the poster boy for the racist reply for forced
>>> integration in college!
>>>
>>> See my post in this thread
>>>
>>> http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=7830771
>>>
>>> for more!
>>>

>>>> it happened in high school, and while it was a mess, I don't think it had much to do with the educational fraud and disaster we face now. In fact, you hardly even hear a mention of it any more. Also, I went to (public) school during forced integration, affirmative action didn't infect high school till a couple decades later.
>>>>

>>>
>>> But forced integration was a form of affirmative action!
>>>
>>> See my post above.
>>>

>>>> But what was really troubling me when I began my quest was the quality of high school classes, not college classes. Particularly the AP Calculus classes (and then later the Algebra classes). After much digging I at least was able to quantify the drop. I found (via old cutoff scores and results) that a 3 in my day is about a 4.5 today and most of that delta occurred from 1985 to 2000.
>>>>

>>> ...
>>>>
>>> There was no motive for high schools to blow up their AP classes, and
>>> they were having enough problems with their algebra classes (which
>>> they eventually blew up later). It was the colleges with all their new
>>> students failing calculus, which prompted the Harvard reform which
>>> prompted the AP curriculum realignment, which resulted in more
>>> failure, which was mitigated with even lower standards, etc, etc. etc.

>>>>
>>>
>>> The sky is falling only in your own imagination. There is no way in
>>> hell that the sky is falling in AP Calculus while in 2000 - the year
>>> you say above the sky fell - we have that scientific study showing
>>> that those AP Calculus students who took an AP calculus exam - even
>>> those who failed it - blow away the entire world that took TIMSS
>>> Advanced in either 1995 or 2008. That is, since they posted higher
>>> scores than the rest of the world, if the best of the rest of the
>>> world posted scores that were respectable, then with all the more
>>> force so did those AP Calculus students in question, and that is not a
>>> falling sky.
>>>
>>> To the reader: Further down in my post
>>>
>>> "Re: Discussion: Do US Math Teachers Suck?"
>>> http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?messageID=7752982&tstart=0
>>>
>>> you can see the truth I speak about AP Calculus students that take the
>>> AP tests - the sky is not falling, and the whole post shows that the
>>> sky is not falling for the US educational system as a whole. (When a
>>> majority of US students post an average score higher than almost all
>>> of the rest of the world, the sky is not falling.)
>>>

>>>>
>>>> Bob Hansen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 30, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Paul Tanner <upprho@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>

>>>>> Robert, I was talking about your claim that affirmative action is the
>>>>> cause of an alleged beginning of the downfall of the US - that is a
>>>>> racist claim.
>>>>>
>>>>> First, affirmative action is set up such that only those minorities
>>>>> who meet qualifications are the beneficiaries of the affirmation
>>>>> action.
>>>>>
>>>>> But since you no doubt deny what I just said:
>>>>>
>>>>> Your claim is equivalent to saying that the standards were lowered to
>>>>> allow what you claim are unqualified minorities "in the room". And
>>>>> therefore by what you claim the only way to have integration of blacks
>>>>> and other minorities into a formerly whites-only situation and not
>>>>> lower standards is to have some sort of "entrance test" that must be
>>>>> passed by the minorities to make sure that letting them "in the room"
>>>>> with the whites does not lower the standards of a formerly whites-only
>>>>> situation. But that was not done with integration in k12. With
>>>>> integration in k12, all blacks and other minorities were let "in the
>>>>> room" with the whites. But by what you say, to avoid the powering of
>>>>> standards in the formerly whites-only schools, there should have been
>>>>> entrance exams given to blacks and other minorities that they had to
>>>>> pass before they were allowed into formerly whites-only schools. And
>>>>> so, by what you say, forced integration in k12 let "in the room" a
>>>>> bunch of unqualified blacks and other minorities. That's racist. That
>>>>> is, this proves that you are trying to have it both ways when you say
>>>>> that forced integration is good but affirmative action is causing the
>>>>> downfall of the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Robert Hansen <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:

>>>>>> Jk, I think Paul is wanting a dialog with you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 30, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Paul Tanner wrote:
>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Here we go again: More comments at math-teach with racist implications
>>>>>>> by certain individuals at math-teach.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're trying to have it both ways with your claim that integration is
>>>>>>> good but affirmative action is bad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You blame affirmative action for an alleged beginning of "the downfall
>>>>>>> of the US".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Put bluntly, that's you saying that allowing all those blacks and
>>>>>>> Hispanics and other non-East-Asian people of color "in the room" that
>>>>>>> you claim were not qualified to be "in the room" because (as you
>>>>>>> claim) their "being in the room" lowered standards is what "started
>>>>>>> the downfall of the US".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't you see that integration is a form of affirmative action? Don't
>>>>>>> you see that integration is a form of allowing all those blacks and
>>>>>>> Hispanics and other non-East-Asian people of color "in the room" that
>>>>>>> you claim were not qualified to be "in the room" because (as you
>>>>>>> claim) their "being in the room" lowered standards - where the room in
>>>>>>> question in education is the formerly white college classroom and
>>>>>>> formerly while k12 classroom?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To see that integration and affirmative action are connected, the
>>>>>>> reader perhaps needs to be reminded of history:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember George Wallace? Remember how he literally stood at the door
>>>>>>> at the University of Alabama and non-literally at the doors of those
>>>>>>> four elementary schools in Alabama to try to stop the affirmative
>>>>>>> action of those people of color from being "in the room" at
>>>>>>> universities and in the k12 schools in Alabama? Wallace and the other
>>>>>>> racists clearly understood that integration in education was the
>>>>>>> affirmative action of allowing all those blacks and Hispanics and
>>>>>>> other non-East-Asian people of color "in the room" that they (the
>>>>>>> racists) claimed were not qualified to be "in the room" because (as
>>>>>>> they claimed) their "being in the room" lowered standards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wallace#Segregation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Quote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Wallace was elected governor in a landslide victory in November 1962.
>>>>>>> He took the oath of office on January 14, 1963, standing on the gold
>>>>>>> star marking the spot where, nearly 102 years earlier, Jefferson Davis
>>>>>>> was sworn in as provisional president of the Confederate States of
>>>>>>> America. In his inaugural speech, Wallace used the line for which he
>>>>>>> is best known:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ?In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth [he
>>>>>>> is talking about American whites], I draw the line in the dust and
>>>>>>> toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation
>>>>>>> now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.[16][17] ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The line, based on a quote from Hebrews 13:8: "Jesus Christ the same
>>>>>>> yesterday, today, forever",[18] was written by Wallace's new
>>>>>>> speechwriter, Asa Earl Carter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a vain attempt to halt desegregation by the enrollment of black
>>>>>>> students Vivian Malone and James Hood, he stood in front of Foster
>>>>>>> Auditorium at the University of Alabama on June 11, 1963. This became
>>>>>>> known as the "Stand in the Schoolhouse Door". After being confronted
>>>>>>> by federal marshals, Deputy Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach, and
>>>>>>> the Alabama Army National Guard, he stepped aside.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In September 1963, Wallace again attempted to stop four black students
>>>>>>> from enrolling in four separate elementary schools in Huntsville.
>>>>>>> After intervention by a federal court in Birmingham, the four children
>>>>>>> were allowed to enter on September 9, becoming the first to integrate
>>>>>>> a primary or secondary school in Alabama.[19][20]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wallace desperately wanted to preserve segregation. In his own words:
>>>>>>> "The President (John F. Kennedy) wants us to surrender this state to
>>>>>>> Martin Luther King and his group of pro-communists who have instituted
>>>>>>> these demonstrations."[21]"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Robert Hansen <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 30, 2012, at 11:30 AM, kirby urner wrote:
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Bob Hansen:
>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> If we were to name the "thing" that harmed the institution of education the most, it would have to be affirmative action.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You're talking about affirmative action and not school integration
>>>>>>>>> right? Integration and affirmative action are not the same concept.

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right. Actually, they are opposites. One is anti discriminatory and the other is pro.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Opening the schools to "minorities" also brought in women, not just
>>>>>>>>> "non white" people.

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And again, that wasn't affirmative action. That was anti discrimination.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> Is affirmative action to blame w/r to any specific minority or is it
>>>>>>>>> just the whole idea of counter-balancing advantages (scholarships
>>>>>>>>> etc.).

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The idea of discrimination is to blame.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am not blaming any minorities. It wasn't their fault. It was the colleges that began the practice but I think colleges were caught off guard by the rapidity that the civil rights movement succeeded and how rapidly the idea of blatant discrimination became ugly to society. In a panic to mitigate their own ugliness they started lowering the standards everywhere, hiring their own graduates, etc, etc.. They mucked things up pretty good, didn't they. You would think this would call for an investigation, like the banking crisis. I still don't get what they were thinking when they started doing it. I think they thought they were god at some point.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bob Hansen



Date Subject Author
5/28/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/28/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Anna Roys
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Gary Tupper
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Anna Roys
5/28/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/4/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/3/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/4/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/4/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
6/7/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Wayne Bishop
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Pam
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
israeliteknight
5/29/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/30/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Robert Hansen
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
5/31/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
israeliteknight
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
kirby urner
6/1/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Louis Talman
6/2/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
6/18/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim
6/18/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Paul A. Tanner III
6/18/12
Read Re: How Bad it Is
Haim

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