The Math Forum



Search All of the Math Forum:

Views expressed in these public forums are not endorsed by NCTM or The Math Forum.


Math Forum » Discussions » sci.math.* » sci.math

Topic: Matheology § 062
Replies: 181   Last Post: Jul 14, 2012 1:48 PM

Advanced Search

Back to Topic List Back to Topic List Jump to Tree View Jump to Tree View   Messages: [ Previous | Next ]
Virgil

Posts: 8,833
Registered: 1/6/11
Re: Matheology � 062
Posted: Jul 12, 2012 5:21 PM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

In article
<bed0adea-838a-4780-a2c5-e2594acbfe24@a16g2000vby.googlegroups.com>,
WM <mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de> wrote:

> On 12 Jul., 21:59, Virgil <vir...@ligriv.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <358d2441-fc8e-441c-8bf1-7405c66cb...@q2g2000vbv.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >  WM <mueck...@rz.fh-augsburg.de> wrote:

> > > On 12 Jul., 12:28, Gus Gassmann <horand.gassm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 11, 10:32 pm, "LudovicoVan" <ju...@diegidio.name> wrote:
> >
> > > > > Idiot, his club would surely be not as boring as yours.  When you'll
> > > > > post
> > > > > some math instead of these insulting inanities, I'll stop calling you
> > > > > an
> > > > > idiot.

> >
> > > > I have some news for you, honey. Pointing out that card lim(M_n) =/=
> > > > lim card(M_n) *is* mathematics.

> >
> > > Do you know of a sequence of natural numbers where the cardinality of
> > > the set of indexed digits goes to infinity but the numbers don't? Or
> > > the other way round?

> >
> > There are all sorts of sequences, i.e., functions whose domain is that
> > set of naturals, whose extensions to N \/ {oo} (the union of N and {oo})
> > are in no way "continuous" at oo, but still are functions.
> >
> > And it is only a delusion of finitists that all functions, even those
> > not on topological spaces, are necessarily continuous.

>
> Don't blather nonsense. My sequence does exactly the same as the
> example wuth balls and vase. Therefore you have to explain the limit
> empty set in set theory and the limit infinity in mathematics.


Your sequence only accounts for two of the 3 sets of naturals involved,
so is incomplete.

But also to justify your limit claim you must show that in the limit
there will be numbers on the left of your decimal point which do not
appear on the right of your decimal point, but this you cannot so as
there are no such numbers.
>
> 01
> 0.1
> 010.1
> 01.01
> 0101.01
> 010.101
> ...
>
> Moreover, you could let the digits wander from the right to the left
> in a similar sequence:
> 01
> 0.1
> 0.101
> 01.01
> 01.0101
> 010.101
> ...
> Then the digits inside the vase are right of the points. Then the
> limit would be infinity - at least according to set theory.


But according to the same theory none of the points on the right of the
point will appear in the limit set, but every number in N appears on the
right eventually, so WM's theory requires that N = {}.
>
> That proves set theory is not in agreement with mathematics.


No, it only proves that set theory is incompatible with WMatheology,
which was already well known to most of us.
> >
> > > That is the mathematical representation of the vase problem.
> >
> > Nope!

>
> It is exactly the same for every finite step. It may deviate in the
> infinite - but not on mathematical reasons


For precisely manthematical reasons, whe every ball that has been put
into a vase has also bee taken out, which is the case in the vase
problem, only fools like WM expect to find any balls still in the vase.



> but only on your command
> that does not belong to mathematics.


It doe belong to standard mathematics, but evidently not to WM's
WMatheology.


> If it did, then every
> arbitrariness could be raised. Then even the limit could be infinity.
> Why not order that? You could order everything "in the infinite", even
> 3 + 3 = 4.


That would only work in WMatheology. Standard mathematics doesn't wobble
around enough to allow it.
> >
> > f(n) = 9*n for n in N and f(oo) = 0 is a mathematical representation of
> > the vase problem, with function f having N \/ {oo} as its domain and N
> > as its range.

>
> In mathematics, we can calculate limits from the finite parts.


But since the relevant function is discontinuous at each n in N, why
expect it to be suddenly continuous at oo?

> We do
> not define nonsense functions as you like to try.


We did not define the function at all, the statement of the problem did
that for us.

We only followed the statement of the problem.

WM should try it sometime!



> In mathematics, a
> function of steadily increasing values has never the limit 0.


Really?

What about

f: N -> Q : f(n) = -1/n

But in fact, one can extend any function
g: N -> R to
h: N \/ {oo} -> R \/ {oo}
by requiring that h(x) = g(x) for x in N and h(oo) = 0,
in which case, the limit, if any, of g(n) as n -> oo is irrelevant to
h(oo).

Now consider the function h: h: N \/ {oo} -> N
defined by h(n) = 9*n for n in N and h(oo) = 0.

It is a perfectly well defined function, at least in standard
mathematics, and h(n) represents the number of balls in the vase at
t = -1/n, n in N, and h(oo) represents the number of balls at t = 0.
--




Date Subject Author
7/7/12
Read Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/7/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
FredJeffries@gmail.com
7/7/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Gus Gassmann
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Jim Burns
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Gus Gassmann
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Gus Gassmann
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Gus Gassmann
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Gus Gassmann
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Gus Gassmann
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Gus Gassmann
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Gus Gassmann
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Gus Gassmann
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Gus Gassmann
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Gus Gassmann
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/13/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/13/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Marshall
7/13/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/13/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/13/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/13/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/13/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/13/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/13/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/13/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
YBM
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
YBM
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/11/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Gus Gassmann
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/12/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/14/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/14/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/14/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/14/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/10/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Ralf Bader
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
William Hughes
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
LudovicoVan
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
mueckenh@rz.fh-augsburg.de
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/7/12
Read Re: Matheology � 062
Virgil
7/8/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Graham Cooper
7/9/12
Read Re: Matheology § 062
Sam Gusset

Point your RSS reader here for a feed of the latest messages in this topic.

[Privacy Policy] [Terms of Use]

© The Math Forum at NCTM 1994-2017. All Rights Reserved.