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Topic: Re: The Prime Directive
Replies: 6   Last Post: Sep 29, 2012 1:08 AM

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Paul A. Tanner III

Posts: 5,920
Registered: 12/6/04
Re: The Prime Directive
Posted: Sep 29, 2012 1:08 AM
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No, it's the other way around. You have (empirically) proved to this
listserve that any attempt to "prove" anything to you is beyond the
pale. You say that all of these schools have been threatened by "the
education industry" in the past and this lack of "some people in power
in" as a qualifier here for "the education industry" is you claiming
that ALL people in power in education want these schools shut down.
One might as well get other things backwards and for instance say that
all conservatives are white supremacists.

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Wayne Bishop <> wrote:
> You have (empirically) proved to this listserve that any attempt to "prove"
> anything to you is beyond the pale. That said, "entire industry" has to be
> taken from common anecdotes, not a formal statistical analysis much less the
> exhaustive mathematical concept of proof. These exist in abundance. The
> one such in my district, "Marshall Fundamental," still carries the name but
> long ago ceased to meet its design (among other things, it was mandated that
> open transfers from any school to any other - at any time during the year! -
> destroyed any sense of selectivity, even self-selectivity). Your point that
> "these schools have had for so long and still..." is belied by the fact that
> ALL of them have been threatened by the education industry in the past (and
> each more than once) and have been forced to rely on an outpouring of public
> opposition and/or legislative guarantees. There is a real world too.
> Wayne
> At 11:44 AM 9/28/2012, Paul Tanner wrote:
> Prove that that the entire "industry" is trying to do as you say. Yes,
> there are a few people in powerful places in this "industry" who wish
> to do this - with which disagree - but there are plenty more who are
> also in places of power who like me disagree, the evidence of which is
> the fact that these schools have had for so long and still have their
> exemptions in question.
> On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 12:44 PM, Wayne Bishop <>
> wrote:

>> There are none so blind as those who will not see.
>> For more detail, the education industry has been trying to wipe out school
>> such as Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, Whitney High here in the LA area, and
>> lots of others across the country that does ever heard of such as the
>> Oklahoma School for Sciences and Mathematics, a competitive two year,
>> highly
>> competitive boarding school for kids across Oklahoma, this written by a
>> guy
>> with a PhD in mathematics from MIT: ...the highest average ACT score in
>> the
>> state. I also heard that it has the highest % of PhD's on its faculty of
>> any high school. For example, the physics teacher got his PhD from
>> Princeton, worked at Lawrence Livermore Labs, and has taught at Columbia.
>> None of these guys, myself included, can teach in the public schools
>> because
>> we don't have the teaching certification. The school is specifically
>> exempted from the dictates of the state dept. of ed., which allows it to
>> assemble such a faculty. No, Paul. Yet again you are letting your
>> politics
>> trump reason. This is just the NAACP symbiotically carrying the
>> industry's
>> water
>> Wayne
>> At 08:14 AM 9/28/2012, Paul Tanner wrote:
>> Wayne and you are getting this all wrong. That which you call the
>> education mafia - in other words, essentially, the complex that is the
>> public school system and that which supports it - is the entity
>> getting sued here, not the entity doing the suing.
>> On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 9:41 AM, Haim <> wrote:

>>> Wayne Bishop Posted: Sep 28, 2012 12:57 AM
>>> Wayne,
>>> This was a good one. Thanks. The paragraph that really caught my eye
>>> is this one,

>>>>"There is a single two-and-a-half hour multiple choice
>>>>test that is the sole criterion for admissions," said
>>>>Rachel Kleinman of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. "So, no
>>>>matter how good your grades are, no matter what your
>>>>teachers say about you, you could win the national
>>>>spelling bee. None of that matters."

>>> Allow me to deconstruct it for our friends at home.
>>> First of all, can you imagine a fairer and more objective criterion
>>> for
>>> admission to a school? And, by "imagine" I do not mean fantasize. Sure,
>>> if
>>> we could do a Vulcan Mind Meld
>>> on every student, we would have perfect information. Until then, we will
>>> have to make do with the possible.
>>> Second, Rachel Kleinman's statement is revealing in ways I feel sure
>>> she
>>> did not intend. Kleinman complains that grades and teacher evaluations
>>> do
>>> not count. So, we already know that the grading system in American
>>> schools
>>> is hopelessly corrupt. Furthermore, Kleinman is assuming there are
>>> legions
>>> of black and brown students with superb teacher evaluations, who are not
>>> being admitted. This may be true, but it seems she cannot imagine that a
>>> teacher might also be unfairly critical of a student, thus unfairly
>>> limiting
>>> that student's chance of getting into Stuyvesant.
>>> This possibility is obvious to anyone. It is, in fact, one of the
>>> reasons the admissions process is structured as it is: to protect
>>> academically able students from antagonistic teachers. Well, why is
>>> Kleinman blind to this alternative possibility? Is she stupid? Is she
>>> ideologically blinkered? I think not. I think she knows, as we all
>>> know,
>>> that The Prime Directive puts irresistible pressure on teachers and
>>> administrators to favorably evaluate black and brown students.
>>> Yes, of course, not every black or brown students has good teacher
>>> evaluations. If a student is excessively absent or violent or disruptive
>>> in
>>> some other way, is not academically able, or actively works against the
>>> school and against himself in some way, his evaluations will be poor.
>>> But,
>>> any black or brown student with even a hint of academic performance will
>>> be
>>> lionized. We know there are minority students who graduate high school
>>> even
>>> though they write and calculate at an 8th grade level, at best.
>>> Let's be honest about this, for once. This legal action by the NAACP
>>> means exactly one thing and one thing only: they want to promote The
>>> Prime
>>> Directive, and they are willing to put their thumbs on the scales of
>>> justice
>>> to do so.
>>> Let me add, finally, that "they" (aka, The Education Mafia and their
>>> "Running Dogs") are just as eager to knock out white and Asian students
>>> as
>>> they are to promote the interests of black and brown students. The Prime
>>> Directive means reducing The Gap. And, while it may be perfectly true
>>> that
>>> they prefer to reduce The Gap by raising the achievement of non-white
>>> non-male students, reducing The Gap is the overarching goal, it is The
>>> Prime
>>> Directive, and they will strive for that goal "By whatever means
>>> necessary".
>>> Haim
>>> No representation without taxation.

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