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Topic: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Replies: 130   Last Post: Oct 19, 2012 10:23 PM

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Paul A. Tanner III

Posts: 5,920
Registered: 12/6/04
Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Posted: Oct 11, 2012 11:48 AM
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On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 11:40 PM, Haim <hpipik@netzero.com> wrote:
> Paul A. Tanner, III Posted: Oct 10, 2012 11:49 AM
>

>>"What Makes Finnish Kids So Smart?"
>>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120425355065601997.html
>>
>>Quote: "The school, which is a model campus, has no
>>sports teams, marching bands or prom."

>
> Quote: "Finland separates students for the last three years of high school based on grades; 53% go to high school and the rest enter vocational school."
>
> In other words, for this and several other key reasons, comparing Finnish schools to Americans schools is like comparing Finnish football to American football. It is a stupid comparison since the Finns, whether at football or at schooling, play a very different game.
>
> Now, if anyone wants to play the Finnish game of school, I am all for it. Let's start with real teachers.
>
> Finally, I would take Finnish schools more seriously, as a model for us, if somebody would tell me what they do with a student who does not measure up or who is otherwise uncooperative or disruptive.
>


I do not know what they do with students before high school that do
not measure up academically or disrupt. But I do not think that they
do things like US public schools now do, which is force teachers and
non-disruptive students to have to endure the disruptions by forcing
the teachers to keep the disruptive ones in the classroom. (I think
that if we found out what they do, it would include having the
disruptive students *immediately* sent out to the offices of the
administrators to be dealt with right then and there. I do not think
that they the legal situation that we have here in the US, which is
that because of litigation being much more common here and because of
the case law that has been thus created, the non-disruptive k12 public
school student has less legal right to non-disrupted classroom
environments than the the legal right of the disruptive k12 public
school student to stay and continue to disrupt until finally down the
road dealt with by longer term removal from the classroom after much
else has been tried. Note: I'm talking k12, not adult college students
including community college, where the legal status is reversed - as
adult students, the non-disruptive college students have more legal
rights to non-disrupted classroom environments than the disruptive
college students have the legal right to stay and continue to disrupt.

But we do know that according to what I cited they in top-performing
Finland and two other top performing countries Korea and Japan do now
allow grade retention. They do not have 14 or 15 year old boys in the
same class as your 11 or 12 year old daughter, such phenomenons now
common in US middle schools in districts that are "getting tough" on
elementary and middle school kids that do not measure up academically.

And I suppose that since there is a place for them to go after middle
school, namely the vocational high schools, they are more OK with
passing along those that don't do as well academically. At least they
don't have such social situations within the grade levels I just
mentioned that one has to think can't be good socially or
psychologically.

I have repeatedly said that I would like to see the US do what
essentially all other countries do, have a high school infrastructure
that can support roughly at least half (in Switzerland, it's roughly
two thirds) of the entire population going into these vocational high
schools, including at least on the order of 100 different vocational
areas, including what they include in Finland, which is professional
athletics. You are actually OK with that?

And you would actually agree to the deal or exchange I said? I'm
speaking of this:

"Would you ever be prepared to see all those extra-curricular school
activities that you enjoyed and your children would enjoy flushed so
that the schools would then have the money to hire enough extra
teachers to see their working time spent in front of a class cut
almost in half and thus their working time spent not in front of a
class almost doubled, even if the standards in terms of minimum
requirements to become a teacher became the highest in the world?

Most people in the US I think like the present setup of public
education as much more than simply a place to get schooled. Much more
than any other country, probably, public education in the US is an
institution that functions as a very comprehensive community center.


Date Subject Author
10/1/12
Read US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/1/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/1/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/3/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Wayne Bishop
10/4/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Wayne Bishop
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/1/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Haim
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
GS Chandy
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
GS Chandy
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
kirby urner
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
kirby urner
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
kirby urner
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
kirby urner
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
kirby urner
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Greg Goodknight
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
kirby urner
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/3/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Greg Goodknight
10/3/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/3/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
kirby urner
10/4/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Greg Goodknight
10/5/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/5/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Greg Goodknight
10/6/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/6/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Wayne Bishop
10/6/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/7/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/7/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/2/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
GS Chandy
10/6/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
GS Chandy
10/10/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/10/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/10/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Haim
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Louis Talman
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/11/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Gary Tupper
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
GS Chandy
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
kirby urner
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
kirby urner
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Louis Talman
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Louis Talman
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/14/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/14/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/14/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/14/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/14/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/14/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/14/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/14/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/14/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/14/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
GS Chandy
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
GS Chandy
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Haim
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
GS Chandy
10/12/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
GS Chandy
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
GS Chandy
10/13/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
GS Chandy
10/14/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
GS Chandy
10/14/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
GS Chandy
10/14/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Haim
10/15/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/15/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Robert Hansen
10/19/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
Paul A. Tanner III
10/18/12
Read Re: US teachers are overworked and underpaid
GS Chandy

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