Greg Goodknight (GG) posted Oct 18, 2012 9:36 PM GSC's responses interspersed): > <snip> > For the life of me, I can't think of any reason why > you think I'd have hope for the Ed biz to reform > itself. > UNLESS the educational system as a whole wants to and learns to reform itself, reform is very unlikely to happen.
The system includes the teachers, many of whom must be union members, members of Teacher Associations, etc. You need to get a 'sufficient' number of all genuine (and honest!) stakeholders on board to ensure that a movement to improve the educational system takes off the ground. That first and foremost includes teachers, many of whom may belong to groups judged by Haim to be part of the 'Education Mafia' (or 'Ed Biz', as GG termed it). This is the case in India as well as in the USA. HOW do you get a sufficient number of them on board? Well, that is what you need to figure out in the USA (AND what we in India also have to figure out as well: we haven't figured it out thus far. Teachers here are rather worse off than are teachers in the USA: but the whole point is "Equity and justice in society". If that can be figured out, everything else will follow).
In any case, right at the start, you need to get rid of the empty sloganeering that we've been seeing, such as "PUT THE EDUCATION MAFIA IN JAIL!" and "BLOW UP THE SCHOOLS OF EDUCATION!", etc, etc. As long as these slogans are floating the discussion space, no teachers will join any movement to improve the educational system (first, for the benefit of the students; then, foR the benefit of teachers and other stakeholders, including parents). > > As long as tax dollars meant to > improve the education of our people is spent by the > current system, > we'll have the current system that is built around > the concept that if > they spend the money and the result is poor, even > more will be spent. > This kind of thing is in fact what happens in a great many systems - and people tend to come out with empty slogans to tackle such issues instead of figuring out "how to fix the system". See also my earlier remarks.
Your analysis above is probably true (in my opinion). The underlying issue is how do you persuade *most* teachers to buy into this? How should they handle their relationship with their Teacher Associations and Unions, while far-reaching changes are sought and wrought?
I have no basis to judge the pay-scales and the link in the USA. In any case, the real issue is only one thing: FIX THE SYSTEM THAT'S BROKEN OR NOT FUNCTION EFFECTIVELY!
GSC > > Personally, I think ending the current K-12 pay > scales that rewards > graduate coursework and advanced degrees by teachers > would do wonders. I > got my MS Electrical Engineering not because I'd get > an automatic pay > increase (that doesn't happen in industry) but > because I felt my career > would be boosted by the knowledge I'd gain, and yes, > if you want to be > an engineer it helps to have a degree in engineering. > Imagine elementary > school teachers taking real math courses in their > spare time so they can > teach well enough to pass muster with some grounded > evaluation tool like > Value Added. Or to get near the top of the evaluation > pile to earn > bonuses as a mentor for others. > > Most K-12 teachers would not take graduate Ed courses > were they not paid > more because of them, so removing that incentive > would shrink the need > for Education Ph.D.'s needed to teach those classes. > Vouchers would also > allow parents a say in which schools their kids will > attend. > Implementing those reforms are more likely than the > Ed leopard changing > its spots voluntarily. > > - -Greg > > > > > I think Wayne is coming around to my point of > view. As one of the walking wounded in the > California Front of The Math Wars, Wayne learned his > lesson the hard way. > > > > And that, in sum, informs most of my efforts in > this forum. I am trying, to the best of my meager > abilities, to persuade our comrades in this forum > that reform is impossible and that we have to explore > alternatives. > > > > Robert himself is an optimist of a sort. He > expects an end to the current educational regime, but > he expects this end to come in the form of a > collapse. This is a distinct possibility. I would > like to avoid this collapse. To paraphrase Gil > Scott-Heron, the collapse will not be televised. We > will live this collapse, and we are not going to like > it. > > > > In the modern parlance of Wall Street, Big > Education is TBTG: To Big To Fail. Education is a > very large, very important, and deeply rooted element > of our society. If education collapses, it will take > a lot of our society down with it. A lot of people > are going to get hurt, and it will take us a long > time, if ever, to put the pieces back together. > > > > What I frankly believe is that one major part > of this problem is that Americans have been too fat > and happy, too safe and comfortable, for too long. > Most Americans do not know how bad it can get. Oh, > , they see the images on TV of refugees in Syria and > demonstrations in Greece but, for Americans, there is > an unreality to them. It is hard to distinguish > those images from "The Price Is Right" > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_price_is_right > > For this reason, and maybe others, Americans are > far too complacent about the impending educational > collapse. In the words of Aragorn to Frodo, we "are > not nearly frightened enough." > > > > Haim > > No representation without taxation.