Drexel dragonThe Math ForumDonate to the Math Forum



Search All of the Math Forum:

Views expressed in these public forums are not endorsed by Drexel University or The Math Forum.


Math Forum » Discussions » Education » math-teach

Topic: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Replies: 23   Last Post: Oct 23, 2012 8:55 PM

Advanced Search

Back to Topic List Back to Topic List Jump to Tree View Jump to Tree View   Messages: [ Previous | Next ]
GS Chandy

Posts: 7,218
From: Hyderabad, Mumbai/Bangalore, India
Registered: 9/29/05
Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Posted: Oct 19, 2012 11:45 AM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

Haim posted Oct 18, 2012 8:02 PM (GSC's remarks interspersed):
>
> lajones Posted: Oct 18, 2012 6:14 AM
>

> >Thank you, Robert, for posing this extremely
> important
> >question. I'm a high school math teacher who has
> been
> >wondering the same thing for many, many years.
>
> The only thing that is not clear is why Robert and
> and others keep asking the question. The answer is
> staring us in the face. One has only to compare Jo
> Boaler to Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
> as one good example, to grok the institution of
> education as it currently exists in the U.S.
>
> Of course, if Jo Boaler were an aberration, the
> the discussion would be entirely different. But, she
> is not and it is not, and it is has been this way for
> several generations.
>

It's been "this way for several generations"...and US stakeholders have STILL not been able to do something effective about the "institution of education"??? Something - SOMETHING - seems to be wrong.
>
>How could it be simpler and
> clearer? There are no scientific standards in
> education research because education research is not
> science.
>

Are we talking about "education research" or are we talking about "education"? Oh, I see... below...
>
> That education is not science is incontrovertible.
> le. It remains only to work out what it is.
>

Right, we've got that foncusion between "education research" and "education" sorted out now. All that's needed is to work out what "education" really is!!! SUCH wondrous insights! Now here will be worked out, according to Haim, just what "education" really is:
>
>I do
> not claim to have the authoritative answer, but until
> somebody can propose a better one, my working
> hypothesis is that education is social engineering.
>

OK, let's say we buy that. "Education" does indeed aim and claim to "change society".
>
> Less gently, it is ideology.
>

Oh? And sloganeering - such as "PUT THE EDUCATION MAFIA IN JAIL!"; "BLOW UP THE SCHOOLS OF EDUCATION!"; "SHUT DOWN THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION!" - ... all of that is not "ideology"?
>
>Or, as our own Wayne
> e Bishop puts it, it is religion.
>

And sloganeering - such as we've seen from Haim and Wayne for xx number of years now - ISN'T religion? GOTCHA!
>
> That this one group of ideologues completely
> ely dominates the institution of public education is
> politics.
>

The "PEOPLE" must reclaim the "institution of public education" - by the repeated application to the public mind of powerful slogans like "PUT THE EDUCATION MAFIA IN JAIL!"; "BLOW UP THE SCHOOLS OF EDUCATION!"; "SHUT DOWN THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION!"
>
>The Education Mafia is enormously powerful
> politically and they have many sympathizers.
>

"PUT THEM ALL IN JAIL (ALONG WITH THEIR MANY SYMPATHIZERS)!" Then "BLOW UP THE JAILS!"
>
> That is the long and the short of it.
>

Nope. That's the short of it. The long of it is another story entirely.
>
> What, if
> if anything, the rest of us can do about it is not so
> clear and needs to be discussed.
>

As has been continuingly discussed for generations now.
>
>What is abundantly
> clear to me is that, at least at this moment in our
> historical development, any kind of direct
> confrontation with the Education Mafia will fail.
>

What is abundantly clear to me (GSC; from 8000 miles away) is only that sloganeering will not work - either in India or in the USA. Effective work towards worthy agreed goals might. What might be a "worthy goal" for the US education system? To my mind, something like "To ensure that the US public education system is designed effectively for our own clearly defined needs" might be appropriate. But I'm from 8000 miles away, and there is no way that I can put up a "worthy goal" for the US public education system; that's for stakeholders in the system to do:
- - students;
- -teachers;
- -parents;
- -administrators;
- - politicians who're willing to apply themselves sincerely to education issues;
- -others who may be knowledgeable about how to go about this HUGE 'Mission' (INCLUDING critics like Haim and his cohorts and consorts).

There are useful tools available whereby individuals and groups can work effectively towards complex societal goals and Missions. These have been described in attachments to my message heading the thread "On realistic and practical tools for the US education system..." - http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=2405705.

GSC
("Still Shoveling Away!" - with apologies if due to Barry Garelick for any tedium caused; and with the observation that the EASY way to avoid such tedium would be by simply not opening any message purported to have originated from GSC)
> And yet, I am not a pessimist. I think there are
> are potentially effective alternatives to a crusade
> against the Education Mafia. But, until people like
> Robert, Wayne, and Greg finally abandon hope
> http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/abandon-hope-all-ye
> -who-enter-here.html
> of reforming the Education Mafia there is no use in
> exploring those alternatives. I think Wayne is
> coming around to my point of view. As one of the
> walking wounded in the California Front of The Math
> Wars, Wayne learned his lesson the hard way.
>
> And that, in sum, informs most of my efforts in
> in this forum. I am trying, to the best of my meager
> abilities, to persuade our comrades in this forum
> that reform is impossible and that we have to explore
> alternatives.
>
> Robert himself is an optimist of a sort. He
> He expects an end to the current educational regime,
> but he expects this end to come in the form of a
> collapse. This is a distinct possibility. I would
> like to avoid this collapse. To paraphrase Gil
> Scott-Heron, the collapse will not be televised. We
> will live this collapse, and we are not going to like
> it.
>
> In the modern parlance of Wall Street, Big
> Big Education is TBTG: To Big To Fail. Education is
> a very large, very important, and deeply rooted
> element of our society. If education collapses, it
> will take a lot of our society down with it. A lot
> of people are going to get hurt, and it will take us
> a long time, if ever, to put the pieces back
> together.
>
> What I frankly believe is that one major part of
> of this problem is that Americans have been too fat
> and happy, too safe and comfortable, for too long.
> Most Americans do not know how bad it can get. Oh,
> , they see the images on TV of refugees in Syria and
> demonstrations in Greece but, for Americans, there is
> an unreality to them. It is hard to distinguish
> those images from "The Price Is Right"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_price_is_right
> For this reason, and maybe others, Americans are far
> too complacent about the impending educational
> collapse. In the words of Aragorn to Frodo, we "are
> not nearly frightened enough."
>
> Haim
> No representation without taxation.



Date Subject Author
10/15/12
Read Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Robert Hansen
10/15/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Haim
10/16/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Michael Weiss
10/16/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Haim
10/18/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
lajones
10/18/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Haim
10/18/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Greg Goodknight
10/18/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Wayne Bishop
10/18/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Haim
10/19/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
GS Chandy
10/19/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
GS Chandy
10/19/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
GS Chandy
10/19/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
GS Chandy
10/19/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
lajones
10/19/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Haim
10/22/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Greg Goodknight
10/22/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Robert Hansen
10/22/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Wayne Bishop
10/22/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Robert Hansen
10/19/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
lajones
10/20/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Wayne Bishop
10/22/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Haim
10/22/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
Haim
10/23/12
Read Re: Why Aren't There Standards in Education Research
lajones

Point your RSS reader here for a feed of the latest messages in this topic.

[Privacy Policy] [Terms of Use]

© Drexel University 1994-2014. All Rights Reserved.
The Math Forum is a research and educational enterprise of the Drexel University School of Education.