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Topic: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific
Research - Response To Greeno

Replies: 12   Last Post: Nov 9, 2012 12:16 PM

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Clyde Greeno @ MALEI

Posts: 220
Registered: 9/13/10
Re: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific Research - Response To Greeno
Posted: Nov 8, 2012 11:43 PM
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Re: Schremmer's: "It is interesting to see what happens when these same
students are led
on a different path, namely learning how to think by themselves the way
mathematicians do rather than take the teacher's word---in other words on a
reason based path."

It also would be quite interesting to see a semi-detailed description of
what happens ... with/to/for/within/etc. such students and their educational
potentials. It seems fair to presume that Alain is talking about students
enjoying educational benefits that they could not acquire by following a
traditional path ... and that such students emerge happier, mentally
healthier, and potentially more productive and prosperous than they
otherwise would.

To achieve that kind of results on a broad scale, through courses within
normally structured TYC curricula, seemingly would be very difficult ... due
to the parameters that presently constrain program operations, as well as
how most TYC math teachers have been reared. The sorely needed initial
models are far more likely to be produced *outside* the normal TYC
structure.

It almost seems that Schremmer is hinting toward some kind of a
non-curricular "math internship" program for college-certain students to
take BEFORE taking TYC courses of any kind ... focusing NOT on the "content
preparation" of students, but on upgrading their "mathematical-thinking
power-tools." Might even be an arena for some educational research of a
more scientific kind than what has been proposed by the NRC.

Considering Obama's well publicized concerns about community colleges -- and
less publicized groping for "science-based educational research" -- funding
for such innovations are likely to become readily available. But because
those projects might be at odds with entrenched TYC programs and personnel,
they might have to be conducted through universities or other NPOs --
perhaps even through some school systems' Adult Education Programs.

Any other such missionaries around?

Cordially,
Clyde





- --------------------------------------------------
From: "Alain Schremmer" <schremmer.alain@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 7:33 PM
To: <mathedcc@mathforum.org>
Subject: Re: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific
Research - Response To Greeno

>
> On Nov 8, 2012, at 10:34 AM, He, Jing Yun wrote:
>

>> In Ancient China, my ancestors formulated a good way of teaching: They
>> did not ask learners to jump to study, instead, they asked their
>> students to prepare to learn. Preparation takes many years before
>> learners are able to learn. Preparation includes learners straighten up
>> their attitudes and build up humble attitudes.

>
> Humble in what way? Knowing the limits of one's knowledge? Or taking the
> teachers' word that they know better?
>

>> In other words, Preparation is to teach learners to be virtuous first.
>
> I see a slight problem here: Who is to decide what virtue is?
>

>> Then once the quality is established, then learners learn various kinds
>> of knowledge based on their interests. Overall, nobody can teach
>> learners who are not sincere in pursuing knowledge.

>
> In reality, particularly in this country, things are a little bit more
> complicated. Students entering two-year colleges
> (1) have been brainwashed for twelve years into "knowing" that learning
> means memorizing and that they cannot hack it.
> (2) find it very difficult to accept that they have been brainwashed if
> only because that makes them feel like suckers.
>

>> If a horse does not want to drink water, then it is useless to force the
>> horse to drink.

>
> True but things are a bit different with students in two-year colleges
> confronted with mathematics because they are usually not really offered
> to study mathematics but to continue on a path---memory based
> "learning"---which they know they cannot hack.
>
> It is interesting to see what happens when these same students are led on
> a different path, namely learning how to think by themselves the way
> mathematicians do rather than take the teacher's word---in other words on
> a reason based path.
>

>> A horse trainer will let the horse thirsty before lead it to bank of
>> water.

>
> Why should it be the horse trainer to want the horse to drink? Why can't
> he leave it to the horse?
>

>> Education should do the same thing!
>
> This society makes sure that nobody is that thirsty so that they can then
> be led to accept any nonsense.
>
> Regards
> --schremmer

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Date Subject Author
11/7/12
Read Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific
Research - Response To Greeno
Richard Hake
11/7/12
Read Re: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific Research - Response To Greeno
Alain Schremmer
11/8/12
Read Re: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific Research - Response To Greeno
GS Chandy
11/8/12
Read Re: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific Research - Response To Greeno
He, Jing Yun
11/8/12
Read Re: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific Research - Response To Greeno
Alain Schremmer
11/8/12
Read Re: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific Research - Response To Greeno
He, Jing Yun
11/8/12
Read RE: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific Research - Response To Greeno
Blustein, Bonnie
11/9/12
Read Re: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific Research - Response To Greeno
Alain Schremmer
11/9/12
Read Re: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific Research - Response To Greeno
Alain Schremmer
11/8/12
Read Re: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific Research - Response To Greeno
Clyde Greeno @ MALEI
11/9/12
Read Re: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific Research - Response To Greeno
Alain Schremmer
11/8/12
Read Re: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific Research - Response To Greeno
Alain Schremmer
11/9/12
Read Re: Necessary and Sufficient Conditions For Genuine Scientific Research - Response To Greeno
GS Chandy

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