On 24/11/2012 2:33 AM, Timothy Sutter wrote: > Don Kelly wrote: > >> Timothy Sutter wrote: > >>> Don Kelly wrote: > >>>> Timothy Sutter wrote: > >>>>> Archimedes Plutonium wrote: > >>>>>> Timothy Sutter wrote: > >>>>>>>>> and, it really does seem as if >>>>>>>>> the little whizzers =DO= -have- "flight paths" >>>>>>>>> and that they are -not- simply in >>>>>>>>> 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 >>>>>>>>> places at the same time.... > >>>>>>>> just look at these images... >>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Various_Spirograph_Designs.jpg >>>>>>>> see, you don't just see the cloud of uncertainty >>>>>>>> you see distinctly flight paths... > >>>>>>> the thing about the spirograph images is that they are =flat= > >>>>>>> and the atom travails in -volume- and so, 3D images >>>>>>> and you really would wonder if the shapes of snowflakes -are- >>>>>>> sort of like the shapes of certain electronic flight paths... >>>>>>> "but isn't i true that no two snowflakes are alike?" >>>>>>> have you really looked at all of them? > >>>>>>> STOP > >>>>>> Hi Tim, I will stop for 3d volume. > >>>>>> It has been a long time since I took apart an electric motor of its >>>>>> windings of copper wire. > >>>>>> Tell me, are the windings close to being spherical in all? And are the >>>>>> windings of 1 long copper wire or are they of 2 long copper wires or >>>>>> more? > >>>>> i just happen to have the motor of >>>>> an olde box window fan in the basement. > >>>>> it's a lot of copper wire and these things called >>>>> "bushings" that seem to be copper as well. > >>>>> it doesn't look too much like this one >>>>> but it resembles it a little bit. > >>>> The box fan motor is likely a single phase shaded pole induction motor. >>>> Such a motor will have no commutator as shown in your permanent magnet >>>> DC motor (it also will not have permanent magnets and the rotor will be >>>> quite different in general). > >>> i'm pretty sure i said they didn't look too much alike >>> but had a little bit of similarity, and, i still say that now. > >>> my new fan has a fairly small motor with a diameter >>> of about 5 inches and no exposed copper, but my >>> old fan motor was larger and you could see blobs >>> of copper wiring -somewhat- like that scooter motor. > >> Your new fan, considering its size may be a "brushless DC" motor - it >> too will have coils. > > > you're a bit like Archimedes Plutonium. > > >>> just seeing the copper coils is a similarity. > >> Yes- there is a similarity- the same as the similarity to a solenoid and >> a transformer. seeing copper coils in a transformer > > yes, they are similar. > >>>> The "bushings" are "oilite (sic?)" bearings which are >>>> typically copper or a copper alloy which is sintered and holds oil. > >>> my old fan may have had this little felt tipped >>> front end where you had to oil every so often. > >> That figures. > > you've heard of such things > > >>>> They are cheaper than ball bearings but don't generally last as >>>> well.. However, these bushings have nothing to do with the >>>> electrical/magnetic operation of the motor. > >>> it's possible that these old bushings were carbon >>> and would crud up after a while and you'd have >>> to clean up the crud. > >> Doubtful. However graphite has been used as a lubricant. Sintered bronze >> is common. > > > my old fan was peculiar. > > >>> maybe i'll dig it out and take it apart unless >>> i already disposed of it in an enVIromentally safe manner. > >>>> As for Archie's question- No- the windings are not spherical at all. > >>> no, many coils are sort of round or cylindrical and not spheres. >>> i have an olde starter motor that may be a -little- bit more >>> like the scooter motor, but i'm, not in the mood to take >>> it apart right now, as, it is greasy and secure where >>> it is on its little shelf. > >> Cylindrical is common and practical."sort of round" is meaningless. > > > well, mine is sort of round, if i drag my measuring wand all about > the diameter, i don't get a consistent several inches i get a variety > of responses for the radii plus or minus about a half an inch. > the coiling part has noticeable eccentricities but it is sort of round.
OK- what was the fan used for and what was the power supply? It appears to have salient poles on both rotor and stator. Is the winding on the stator and the longer poles on the rotor. How old was it and roughly what were the dimensions? My statements were based on what I call a box fan > >>>> As usual he is off in his own little world -where facts are not important. > >>> well, yon Pluto does -ask- if the windings are spherical >>> Pluto doesn't exactly tell me what sort of motor >>> i have and then tell me how it's constructed. > >> If I am wrong- let me know. > > > for one, your description of my fan claimed it was > self lubricating with "oilite" type bushings, it was not.
did the bushings look like bronze tubes? > > like i said, my old fan was somewhat peculiar. > > you may be a bit like Archimedes Pluto, at least, you didn't say; > > "no, your fan could not possibly have > been one that needed to be oiled." > > > but, more importantly, in this case, you are wrong about Pluto. > you said Pluto was off in [his] own little world where facts > mean nothing simply because [he] asked me if the copper windings > in my motor coil was close to being spherical. > > here's what Pluto said; > > ==== > Tell me, are the windings close to being spherical in all? > ==== > > and then you say; > > === > As usual he is off in his own little world -where facts are not > important. > === > > > so, this is the sort of question and answer period here; > > > AP: "are the copper windings in your motor close to being spherical?" > > DK: ""as usual, you're off in your own little world > where facts mean nothing"" > > > and here's how Pluto modiifes [his] response; > > === > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.chem/6nkMLledbMw/ZaQp6nxBkKAJ > Now I had to be sure that no electric motor or rotor thereof was a > sphere shaped wire loop. Now I am not saying such a object cannot > exist or is nonexistent. I am saying that the basic principle of an > electric motor is based on the cylinder shape.
Having met pluto before-- I have my own biases based on his inability to recognize facts opposed to his hypotheses.
In this case he claims that the "basic principle of an electric motor is based on the cylinder shape".
Why? This is nonsense!
The basic principle of a motor is the physics involved (Faraday/Maxwell, Conservation of energy, Lorentz,etc).
A cylinder shape is often used for practical reasons- but it is NOT a "basic principle" Some motors are flat disc rotating in a field which is in the direction of the axis of the disc (i.e. a KWH meter or a printed circuit motor). Some are linear motors-nothing resembling a cylinder (high speed mag-lev trains, linear actuators,etc). Shape is dictated by efficient and effective design for the purpose. Compare the shape of a Gramme Ring DC machine to Edison's early motors and generators to newer machines of essentially the same type- shape evolves but the basic physics involved is still the same.