
Re: Simple random number generator?
Posted:
Nov 27, 2012 10:36 PM


"Ben Bacarisse" <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> wrote in message news:0.ef56b5652decd19bb478.20121128013501GMT.87k3t6v7ay.fsf@bsb.me.uk... > "Existential Angst" <fitcat@optonline.net> writes: > >> "Ben Bacarisse" <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> wrote in message >> news:0.e12037e9d116e6e9081a.20121127131802GMT.878v9nw5f9.fsf@bsb.me.uk... >>> Clark Smith <noaddress@nowhere.net> writes: >>> >>>> On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:08:17 0500, Existential Angst wrote: >>>> >>>>> Would be the digits of e, pi, et al? >>>>> If that's the case, no need for fancy pyooter algorithms? >>>>> >>>>> Inneresting article on pi, randomness, chaos. >>>>> http://www.lbl.gov/ScienceArticles/Archive/pirandom.html >>>> >>>> Is it not the case that the digits of e, pi et al. can't strictly >>>> be random, if it is only because they are highly compressible? I.e. >>>> because there small, compact formulas that spit out as many digits as >>>> you >>>> want in a completely deterministic way? >>> >>> Absolutely. >> >> Well, as I responded above, Bailey/Crandall would most certainly >> disagree. > > No they don't. They use random, quite properly, in a slightly informal, > statistical sense: > > It is of course a longstanding open question whether the digits of > and various other fundamental constants are "random" in an appropriate > statistical sense. > > Note the quotes and the fact that the term is immediately qualified. > >>> Of course, that's also the case for the "fancy pyooter algorithms" that >>> Existential Angst wants to replace, so he or she is not really talking >>> about random but about pseudorandom sequences. >> >> Well, ackshooly I am talking about true random. Bailey and Crandall are >> hypothesizing that e, pi et al are true random (I like "intrinsically >> random"), but you and others are apparently arguing that because pi can >> be >> calc'd or generated, it cannot be random. Bailey/Crandall would clearly >> disagree with this. > > No, they don't. I am sure they accept the information theoretic > meaning of the word, just as I accept the statistical sense of the term > (especially what in "scare quotes").
What is the diffeence between "random" in the informationtheoretic context vs. the statistical context? Wouldn't the two be correlatable or translatable in some way?
> >> Calculating the digits >>> of pi or e etc (and, presumably, some simple combinations thereof) is >>> harder than the super fast "fancy" algorithms already used, so I don't >>> see the benefit. >> >> Hasn't pi been calc'd to billions of places already? Seems to me that's >> enough random numbers to last people for a while.... lol > > Does the lol mean you are joking?
Well actually, the wiki article I linked says pi has been calc'd to a *trillion* digits. The point being, if you need a random sequence, for whatever purpose, you can just sort of pull them "off the shelf", from anywhere in the sequence. A trillion numbers oughtta do ya....
> > <snip> >> I think "intrinsic experiments", like singlephoton slit/diffraction >> experiments would be an elegant way to generate true random numbers  >> but >> even that is then dependent on the "legitimacy" of the experimental >> setup. > > Good quality, hardwaregenerated random number sequences (if our current > understanding of quantum effects is correct) are random in a different > way to the digits of pi. It helps if the terminology is be able to > distinguish between them.
Which harks back to the above. Couldn't you take a single photon slit experiment, sample the results "bytewise", ie, record every diffraction result in groups of 5, and let those five zero's/one's represent a base 10 digit? Then, you'd have the photon slit experiment generate irrationalnumberlike randomness.
In that sense, informationtheoretic randomness (if you would charactize the photon exp as "informational") and statistical randomness could be translatable?  EA
> > <snip> >  > Ben.

