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Topic: Mathematica and Lisp
Replies: 83   Last Post: Mar 5, 2013 10:12 PM

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Noqsi

Posts: 51
Registered: 12/8/10
Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Posted: Feb 6, 2013 9:28 PM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 1:51:10 AM UTC-5, Richard Fateman wrote:
> On 2/3/2013 5:20 PM, John Doty wrote:
>
> ....
>
> You seem to think I haven't written Mathematica programs.
>
> Maybe looking at the appendix here would change your mind.
>
> Maybe not, though.
>
> http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~fateman/papers/better-rules.pdf


All this demonstrates is that you don't understand how to use Mathematica. =
All you know how to do is fight against it. You don't understand when to us=
e rules versus when to use the various algebraic tools. Your code is pointl=
ess: no trajectories calculated, no bridges designed, and it doesn't enable=
anything that Mathematica can't already do.

> > Considered as software failures, both of these occurred in application =
code and were not the result of programming language deficiencies.
>
>
>
> Was the code not written in a programming language?
>
> Even if it was written in assembler, that too is
>
> a programming language. I expect that the bug
>
> occurred because the programmer did not realize the
>
> semantics of the code.


In the Theravac case, the coders appeared not to understand the operation a=
nd hazards of the radiation therapy machinery very well. In Ariane case, I =
have heard that the coders concluded that overflow was impossible in the co=
ntext of Ariane IV, but that analysis was not redone for Ariane V when the =
software was reused. In any case, the fundamental failure in both cases was=
in systems engineering, not code. You shouldn't place much blame on the sp=
ark that sets you on fire when you walk around in clothes soaked with gasol=
ine.

> > Not all bugs are of equal importance. An error of 5.5E-79 in a Bessel f=
unction is very unlikely
>
> >to cause trouble in a practical application.
>
>
>
> One of the marvels of computing today is that it is possible to do so
>
> much in such a short time.
>
> One can execute billions of instructions a second. If only
>
> one in a million does the wrong thing, and is wrong only
>
> by a tiny percent, you can accumulate a whopping mistake
>
> in a second.


5.5E-79 is rather smaller than a tiny percent. The best physical measuremen=
ts are good to a few parts in 10^16. Assuming teraflop arithmetic, adding n=
umbers with errors of 5.5E-79, it'll take you about 4E45 times the age of t=
he universe to have errors add up to 1E-16.


> I've been using Mathematica to do practical work since version 1,
>

> > and I've never encountered a bug in its numerics.
>
> I guess it is my turn to wonder if YOU know much about Mathematica.


The difference is that I *use* it. You *fight* it.

> > Crazy results from numerical codes are a normal occurrence,
>
> > I don't find Mathematica to be unusually hazardous here.
>
> I guess I disagree on this point.


But you don't actually use numerical codes. You don't design bridges, compu=
te trajectories, or study turbulence. So your opinion is uninformed.

> >> This is pretty far afield from the original question which I
> >> think was somehow...s Mathematica somehow Lisp-like.... should I learn=

Lisp...
>>
> > I'm unusual in that I write practical engineering code in Scheme (a Lis=

p dialect),
> > along with code for both science and engineering in Mathematica.
>
> I think that is unusual, but I count it as a good thing.


Well, I'm not so sure that using Scheme is so good: it means that few poten=
tial collaborators are willing to try to read my code. To the average engin=
eer or scientist, Lisp screams "forget your application and pay attention t=
o the cool computer science". Now, I actually know enough of that CS crap t=
hat I can see past it to reality, but most don't. I primarily use Scheme to=
access a collection of useful functions that are actually written in C, bu=
t have Scheme (Guile) interfaces. I think it would be much better if those =
interfaces were in a language friendlier to engineers, like Python. Scheme'=
s fine for me, with my eccentric background, but not for most others.

> Though
> Common Lisp (a Lisp dialect) is used in space computations --
> the Hubble telescope.


My old colleague Mark Johnston developed SPIKE for Hubble, but it has been =
and is used for other missions as well. I was involved in getting the ASCA =
and Chandra space observatories to adopt it for their operational planning.=
The last time I talked to Mark (a long time ago), he seemed rather unhappy=
with CL as an implementation language for a practical AI application. I do=
n't think he'd choose CL again if he had to rewrite SPIKE.



Date Subject Author
1/11/13
Read Mathematica and Lisp
amzoti
1/12/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
1/12/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
David Bailey
1/14/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
1/14/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
David Bailey
1/16/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
1/18/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
David Bailey
1/22/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
1/22/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
David Bailey
1/24/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
1/25/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
1/26/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Murray Eisenberg
1/26/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Murray Eisenberg
1/26/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
W. Craig Carter
1/16/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Murray Eisenberg
1/16/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
1/16/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
David Bailey
1/18/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Murray Eisenberg
1/31/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Noqsi
2/2/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Daniel Lichtblau
2/3/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
2/2/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
2/3/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
David Bailey
2/5/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
2/6/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
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2/6/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
2/3/13
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2/5/13
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2/6/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
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2/8/13
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2/5/13
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Joseph Gwinn
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Matthias Bode
2/3/13
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Noqsi
2/6/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
2/6/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
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2/6/13
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mathgroup
2/4/13
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2/6/13
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Noqsi
2/8/13
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Richard Fateman
2/9/13
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2/9/13
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2/10/13
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michael
2/10/13
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2/8/13
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Andrzej Kozlowski
2/8/13
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Noqsi
2/9/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
2/10/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
David Bailey
2/9/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Matthias Bode
2/15/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Noqsi
2/17/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
David Bailey
2/18/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Joseph Gwinn
2/18/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
David Park
2/22/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
2/23/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
David Bailey
2/23/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
2/25/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
David Bailey
2/26/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
2/27/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Bill Rowe
2/27/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
3/2/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Bill Rowe
3/3/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
3/3/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Noqsi
3/5/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
3/5/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Vince Virgilio
3/3/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Bob Hanlon
1/16/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Noqsi
1/16/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
1/18/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Noqsi
2/23/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Dr. Peter Klamser
2/25/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Richard Fateman
2/26/13
Read Re: Mathematica and Lisp
Noqsi

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