On 3/15/2013 6:17 PM, Virgil wrote: > In article > <firstname.lastname@example.org>, > WM <email@example.com> wrote: > >> On 15 Mrz., 20:17, fom <fomJ...@nyms.net> wrote: >>> On 3/15/2013 3:20 AM, WM wrote: >>> >>>> On 14 Mrz., 23:54, fom <fomJ...@nyms.net> wrote: >>> >>>>> Unless my translation is in error, Zermelo's >>>>> 1908 supports urelements. >>> >>>> Zermelo says (in your translation on p. 210, 3rd line): If T is a set >>>> whose elements M, N, R, ... all are sets different from the null >>>> set, ... >>> >>> That is Zermelo's description of the >>> axiom of choice. >> >> T is the domain, the set which Zermelo uses to demonstrate his >> intention of the axiom of choice. >> >>> It is not the description of his domain. >>> >>> I gave the relevant passages >> >> Not for ZFC. There everything is a set. > > But as Frankel outlived Zermelo, ZF and ZFC need not be pure Frankel, > and and Frankel may well have allowed ur-elements in sets other than in > ZFC. >
And, since people also print various versions, it is important to restrict to what is on the printed page, to what the author has written in direct commentary, and what the author verbally explains to one's self in direct physical communication.
Reversing the process to what is available, the original issue is something that is on a written page.