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Topic: Matheology S 224
Replies: 16   Last Post: Apr 21, 2013 6:53 PM

 Messages: [ Previous | Next ]
 fom Posts: 1,968 Registered: 12/4/12
Re: Matheology S 224
Posted: Apr 20, 2013 5:59 PM

On 4/20/2013 3:40 PM, Frederick Williams wrote:
> Nam Nguyen wrote:
>>
>> On 20/04/2013 8:59 AM, fom wrote:

>>> On 4/20/2013 5:25 AM, Alan Smaill wrote:
>>>> Frederick Williams <freddywilliams@btinternet.com> writes:
>>>>

>>>>> Nam Nguyen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 19/04/2013 5:55 AM, Frederick Williams wrote:

>>>>>>> Nam Nguyen wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 18/04/2013 7:19 AM, Frederick Williams wrote:

>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, as I remarked elsewhere, "x e S' /\ Ay[ y e S' -> y e S]"
>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>> express "x is in a non-empty subset of S".

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why?

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It says that x is in S' and S' is a subset of S.

>>>>>>
>>>>>> How does that contradict that it would express "x is in a non-empty
>>>>>> subset of S", in this context where we'd borrow the expressibility
>>>>>> of L(ZF) as much as we could, as I had alluded before?

>>>>>
>>>>> You really are plumbing the depths. To express that x is non-empty you
>>>>> have to say that something is in x, not that x is in something.

>>>>
>>>> but the claim was that x *is in* a non-empty set --
>>>> in this case S', which is non-empty, since x is an element of S',
>>>> and S' is a subset of S.
>>>>
>>>> (Much though it would be good for Nam to realise that
>>>> some background set theory axioms would be kind of useful here)
>>>>

>>>
>>> that primitive symbols are undefined outside of a
>>> system of axioms (definition-in-use)
>>>
>>> The other aspect, though, is that Nam appears to be using an
>>> implicit existence assumption. So,
>>>
>>> AxASES'(xeS' /\ Ay(yeS' -> yeS))
>>>
>>> clarifies the statement and exhibits its second-order nature.
>>> This is fine since he claims that his work is not in the
>>> object language.

>>
>> Right.

>
> If fom's formula is to express "x is in a non-empty subset of S" then it
> needs to have both x and S free, so delete the first two quantifiers.
>

Do you have a particular x and S in mind?

Or are we reverting to the distinction between real
and apparent variables from the first "Principia
Mathematica"?

Or are we interpreting a statement in relation to a
general usage over an unspecified domain? My quantifiers
are in place to make clear the meaning for general usage.

Within any context involving proof, the leading quantifiers
obey rules:

|AxASES'(xeS' /\ Ay(yeS' -> yeS))
|ASES'(teS' /\ Ay(yeS' -> yeS))
|ES'(teS' /\ Ay(yeS' -> yeP))
||(xeP' /\ Ay(yeP' -> yeP))

The original statement is assumed (hence, is stroked)

The existential statement is assumed (hence, a second stroke)

Now the presuppostions of use are clear.

That was my only purpose.

Date Subject Author
4/20/13 Alan Smaill
4/20/13 Frederick Williams
4/20/13 namducnguyen
4/20/13 fom
4/20/13 namducnguyen
4/20/13 namducnguyen
4/20/13 Frederick Williams
4/20/13 fom
4/21/13 Frederick Williams
4/21/13 namducnguyen
4/21/13 fom
4/21/13 fom
4/21/13 fom
4/21/13 fom
4/20/13 namducnguyen