Drexel dragonThe Math ForumDonate to the Math Forum



Search All of the Math Forum:

Views expressed in these public forums are not endorsed by Drexel University or The Math Forum.


Math Forum » Discussions » Education » mathedcc

Topic: Re: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies
#2 - ADDENDUM #2

Replies: 21   Last Post: May 5, 2013 9:47 PM

Advanced Search

Back to Topic List Back to Topic List Jump to Tree View Jump to Tree View   Messages: [ Previous | Next ]
Alain Schremmer

Posts: 864
Registered: 10/10/05
Re: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies #2 - ADDENDUM #2
Posted: May 3, 2013 1:56 PM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply


(1) Re. my "we are not really giving the huge majority of the students
a real choice as we are in effect channeling them.", see
<http://www.ams.org/notices/201303/rnoti-p340.pdf>

(2) Re Brandenburg's "billionaire boys' & girls' club", they have a
vested interest. As for the "absolutist ideologues", they are just the
hired help.

(3) But in fact, here again, this is nothing new:

--- A determining factor in the creation of community colleges in
general and, later, remedial programs in particular was the desire of
the business world to "externalize" its training costs by having the
tax-payers pay for them instead of passing the cost to their customers.

--- Also, note that when a course, say algebra, is taught in high
school, it is at the expense of the tax-payers in the school district
while, when it is taught in a community college, it is spread to the
tax-payers of the county, the state and the nation but, better yet and
more and more, left to the students to the further great benefit of
the banks.

--- In the case of the charter schools, though, the mechanism seems
more like that for charter prisons, i.e. a more direct way to pump
money from where it is, namely the (many) poor, to where it "Spozed To
Be"(*), namely the (few) rich---who sure understand the law of
conservation of money, aka the ?extended accounting equation?.

(*) By the way, Herndon wrote his book in 1968.

Regards
--schremmer

On May 3, 2013, at 11:56 AM, Guy Brandenburg wrote:

> I agree that there have always been problems with education. The
> architects of our current system appear to be absolutist ideologues
> who KNOW the one and only way to improve things, despite having no
> next to no personal experience actually teaching. (Bloomberg, Gates,
> Duncan, Klein, Walton family, Amway owners, Koch Bros, Tilson &
> other hedge fund rich boys, Kopp, Huffman, ALEC, Rhee--for most of a
> decade now. And no, it's not getting better by ANY of the measures
> by which they claimed scores would rise like skyrockets...; despite
> the fact that they are the ones calling the shots and getting their
> way.)
>
> I'm helping a friend with remedial College algebra --he graduated HS
> about 15 years ago, remembered some and forgot a lot and was never
> comfortable with fractions.
>
> I'm not impressed with this remedial course hes taking. It seems
> like it was written by someone whose last experience was with a
> Dolciani textbook 30 years ago but without any explanations. It does
> do a lot if online stuff, but its mostly for assessment not
> instruction. It certainly doesn't appear to show what you actually
> might need this stuff for, and seems to emphasize hand computation
> in a fairly thoughtless manner.
>
> Here's a little approximate statistic:in 1967 when I took AP
> calculus exam, I was one of 20,000 kids taking ANY AP exam in any
> subject in the entire nation. so. There are nowsomewhere between
> 500,000 and million kids per year doing that now -- nearly a third
> if all HS grads each year. And that is not dumbed down pap. Those
> are quite good tests, at very high levels. Look one up in any
> subject you don't currently teach. I guarantee you will be humbled.
> And these are HS kids for hod's sake!!!
>
> And that trend is not due to the billionaire boys' & girls' club.
> That rise in AP taking and passing numbers appears to me almost
> exactly like an exponential curve. I have some graphs of this on my
> blog. If I had time I'd even work out manually an exponential curve
> and then compare it to the raw data again. I bet R or R^2 would be
> well over 95%.
>
> Guy
>
> On May 3, 2013, at 11:05, Alain Schremmer
> <schremmer.alain@gmail.com> wrote:
>

>> I completely agree with Mahler.
>>
>> I would just add another thing that "needs fixing": we are not
>> really giving the huge majority of the students a real choice as we
>> are in effect channeling them.
>>
>> Regards
>> --schremmer
>>
>> On May 3, 2013, at 10:26 AM, Phil Mahler wrote:
>>

>>>> Half of all freshmen need remediation? Plainly, something has
>>>> gone terribly wrong...

>>>
>>> I am not convinced that something has gone terribly wrong, though
>>> I agree that there are things that need fixing. Things have always
>>> been terribly wrong, depending on one's interpretation of what is
>>> right.
>>>
>>> Consider these facts (I know that all facts are disputable);
>>>
>>> In 1932 20% of 12th-grade students could compute 2.1% of 60.
>>> In 1937 Taylor studied more than 2000 freshmen in teachers'
>>> colleges and found that more than half could not divide 175 by 0.35.
>>> The rate of college enrollment immediately after high school
>>> completion increased from 49% in 1972 to 70% by 2009.
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Now consider that 1932 a much smaller percentage of students went
>>> to high school. 12th grade was rare. In 1947 trigonometry was a
>>> college freshman level course, at least according to a long-ago
>>> then-older colleague who was a math major at a large mid-western
>>> university.
>>> I am sure that in the good old days lots of people couldn't compute.
>>> Think about the demographics of the extra 21% that go to college
>>> since 1972. I doubt if these come from the top of their high
>>> school class. But once, they had a shot at getting a job anyway.
>>>
>>> A lot of the remediation we demand is in the area of hand
>>> calculation of decimals and fractions. Of students that have been
>>> using calculators for the last 5 years or more. When we are done
>>> we often still don't know if they can get correct answers with a
>>> calculator, though that is what they will use for the rest of
>>> their life.
>>> And also we remediate algebra that most don't really need (I don't
>>> mean the basics of variables, signed numbers, linear equations).
>>>
>>> For me, there are challenges, important ones, but I think some of
>>> them are misdirected.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>> ****************************************************************************
>>> * To post to the list: email mathedcc@mathforum.org *
>>> * To unsubscribe, email the message "unsubscribe mathedcc" to majordomo@mathforum.org
>>> *
>>> * Archives at http://mathforum.org/kb/forum.jspa?forumID=184 *
>>> ****************************************************************************

>>
>> ****************************************************************************
>> * To post to the list: email mathedcc@mathforum.org *
>> * To unsubscribe, email the message "unsubscribe mathedcc" to majordomo@mathforum.org
>> *
>> * Archives at http://mathforum.org/kb/forum.jspa?forumID=184 *
>> ****************************************************************************


****************************************************************************
* To post to the list: email mathedcc@mathforum.org *
* To unsubscribe, email the message "unsubscribe mathedcc" to majordomo@mathforum.org *
* Archives at http://mathforum.org/kb/forum.jspa?forumID=184 *
****************************************************************************


Date Subject Author
4/27/13
Read Re: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies
#2 - ADDENDUM #2
Richard Hake
4/29/13
Read Re: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies #2 - ADDENDUM #2
Haim
4/30/13
Read Re: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies #2 - ADDENDUM #2
Haim
4/30/13
Read RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies #2
- ADDENDUM #2
Petrak, Daniel G.
4/30/13
Read Re: RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies #2 - ADDENDUM #2
Haim
5/2/13
Read RE: RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies
#2 - ADDENDUM #2
Wayne Mackey
5/3/13
Read RE: RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies
#2 - ADDENDUM #2
Phil Mahler
5/3/13
Read Re: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies #2 - ADDENDUM #2
Alain Schremmer
5/3/13
Read Re: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies #2 - ADDENDUM #2
Guy Brandenburg
5/3/13
Read Re: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies #2 - ADDENDUM #2
Alain Schremmer
5/3/13
Read RE: RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of
Lies #2 - ADDENDUM #2
RotmanJ
5/3/13
Read Re: RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies #2 - ADDENDUM #2
Haim
5/3/13
Read Re: RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies
#2 - ADDENDUM #2
Bill Marsh
5/3/13
Read Re: RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies #2 - ADDENDUM #2
Haim
5/3/13
Read Re: RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies
#2 - ADDENDUM #2
Bill Marsh
5/3/13
Read Re: RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies #2 - ADDENDUM #2
Haim
5/3/13
Read RE: RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies
#2 - ADDENDUM #2
Wayne Mackey
5/3/13
Read Re: RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies #2 - ADDENDUM #2
Haim
5/5/13
Read RE: RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies
#2 - ADDENDUM #2
Phil Mahler
5/5/13
Read RE: RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies
#2 - ADDENDUM #2
Gilligan, Lawrence \(gilliglg\)
5/5/13
Read Re: RE: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies #2 - ADDENDUM #2
Haim
4/30/13
Read Re: David Berliner on "A Nation at Risk": Three Decades of Lies #2 - ADDENDUM #2
Haim

Point your RSS reader here for a feed of the latest messages in this topic.

[Privacy Policy] [Terms of Use]

© Drexel University 1994-2014. All Rights Reserved.
The Math Forum is a research and educational enterprise of the Drexel University School of Education.