Drexel dragonThe Math ForumDonate to the Math Forum



Search All of the Math Forum:

Views expressed in these public forums are not endorsed by Drexel University or The Math Forum.


Math Forum » Discussions » sci.math.* » sci.math.independent

Topic: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Replies: 96   Last Post: Jun 6, 2013 5:19 AM

Advanced Search

Back to Topic List Back to Topic List Jump to Tree View Jump to Tree View   Messages: [ Previous | Next ]
namducnguyen

Posts: 2,688
Registered: 12/13/04
Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Posted: May 28, 2013 12:44 AM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

On 26/05/2013 10:17 PM, zuhair wrote:
> On May 26, 4:49 pm, Nam Nguyen <namducngu...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> On 26/05/2013 3:52 AM, Zuhair wrote:
>>

>>> On May 26, 11:03 am, Nam Nguyen <namducngu...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>> On 26/05/2013 12:52 AM, Zuhair wrote:
>>
>>>>> Frege wanted to reduce mathematics to Logic by extending predicates by
>>>>> objects in a general manner (i.e. every predicate has an object
>>>>> extending it).

>>
>>>> [...]
>>
>>>>> Now the above process will recursively form typed formulas, and typed
>>>>> predicates.

>>
>>>> Note your "process" and "recursively".
>>
>>>>> As if we are playing MUSIC with formulas.
>>
>>>>> Now we stipulate the extensional formation rule:
>>
>>>>> If Pi is a typed predicate symbol then ePi is a term.
>>
>>>>> The idea behind extensions is to code formulas into objects and thus
>>>>> reduce the predicate hierarchy into an almost dichotomous one, that of
>>>>> objects and predicates holding of objects, thus enabling Rule 6.

>>
>>>>> What makes matters enjoying is that the above is a purely logically
>>>>> motivated theory, I don't see any clear mathematical concepts involved
>>>>> here, we are simply forming formulas in a stepwise manner and even the
>>>>> extensional motivation is to ease handling of those formulas.
>>>>> A purely logical talk.

>>
>>>> Not so. "Recursive process" is a non-logical concept.
>>
>>>> Certainly far from being "a purely logical talk".
>>
>>> Recursion is applied in first order logic formation of formulas,
>>
>> Such application isn't purely logical. Finiteness might be a purely
>> logical concept but recursion isn't: it requires a _non-logical_
>> concept (that of the natural numbers).
>>

>>> and all agrees that first order logic is about logic,
>>
>> That doesn't mean much and is an obscured way to differentiate between
>> what is of "purely logical" to what isn't.
>>

>
> Yes I do agree that this way is not a principled way of demarcating
> logic. I generally tend to think that logic is necessary for analytic
> reasoning, i.e. a group of rules that make possible to have an
> analytic reasoning. Analytic reasoning refers to inferences made with
> the least possible respect to content of statements in which they are
> carried, thereby rendering them empirically free. However this is too
> deep. Here what I was speaking about do not fall into that kind of
> demarcation, so it is vague as you said. I start with something that
> is fairly acceptable as being "LOGIC", I accept first order logic
> (including recursive machinery forming it) as logic, and then I expand
> it by concepts that are very similar to the kind of concepts that made
> it, for example here in the above system you only see rules of
> formation of formulas derived by concepts of constants, variables,
> quantifying, definition, logical connectivity and equivalents,
> restriction of predicates. All those are definitely logical concepts,
> however what is added is 'extension' which is motivated here by
> reduction of the object/predicate/predicate hierarchy, which is a
> purely logical motivation, and also extensions by the axiom stated
> would only be a copy of logic with identity, so they are so innocuous
> as to be considered non logical.
> That's why I'm content with that sort of definitional extensional
> second order logic as being LOGIC. I can't say the same of Z, or ZF,
> or the alike since axioms of those do utilize ideas about structures
> present in mathematics, so they are mathematically motivated no doubt.
> NF seems to be logically motivated but it use a lot of mathematics to
> reach that, also acyclic comprehension uses graphs which is a
> mathematical concept. But here the system is very very close to logic
> that I virtually cannot say it is non logical. Seeing that second
> order arithmetic is interpretable in it is a nice result, it does
> impart some flavor of logicism to traditional mathematics, and
> possibly motivates logicism for whole of mathematics. Mathematics
> might after all be just a kind of Symbolic Logic as Russell said.
>
> Zuhair
>

>>> similarly here
>>> although recursion is used yet still we are speaking about logic,
>>> formation of formulas in the above manner is purely logically
>>> motivated.

>>
>> "Purely logically motivated" isn't the same as "purely logical".
>>

>
> A part from recursion, where is the mathematical concept that you
> isolate with this system?


I don't remember what you'd mean by "this system", but my point would be
the following.

In FOL as a framework of reasoning, any form of infinity (induction,
recursion, infinity) should be considered as _non-logical_ .

The reason is quite simple: in the language L of FOL (i.e. there's no
non-logical symbol), one can not express infinity: one can express
"All", "There exists one" but one simply can't express infinity.

Hence _infinity must necessarily be a non-logical concept_ . Hence the
concept such the "natural numbers" can not be part of logical reasoning
as Godel and others after him have _wrongly believed_ .

Because if we do accept infinity as part of a logical reasoning,
we may as well accept _infinite formulas_ and in such case it'd
no longer be a human kind of reasoning.

In fact in such case we'd consider ourselves as God.

For one, I'd certainly not consider myself so.

--
----------------------------------------------------
There is no remainder in the mathematics of infinity.

NYOGEN SENZAKI
----------------------------------------------------


Date Subject Author
5/26/13
Read LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com
5/26/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
namducnguyen
5/26/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com
5/26/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
namducnguyen
5/26/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
5/26/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
namducnguyen
5/26/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
5/26/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
namducnguyen
5/26/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Charlie-Boo
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Charlie-Boo
5/26/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com
5/27/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
zuhair
5/27/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
5/27/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com
5/27/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
namducnguyen
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
namducnguyen
5/29/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
5/30/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
namducnguyen
5/30/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
5/30/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
5/30/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
namducnguyen
5/31/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
5/30/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Bill Taylor
5/30/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
5/30/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com
5/30/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com
5/30/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
namducnguyen
5/31/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
5/31/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com
5/31/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
5/31/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
namducnguyen
5/27/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Charlie-Boo
5/27/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Charlie-Boo
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
6/4/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Charlie-Boo
6/4/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
6/5/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
5/29/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
5/29/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
5/30/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
5/29/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
5/30/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
5/30/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
5/31/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
5/31/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com
5/31/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
5/31/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
6/1/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
6/1/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
namducnguyen
6/1/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
6/2/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
6/2/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
6/3/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
6/3/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
6/4/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
6/4/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
namducnguyen
6/4/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
6/5/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
6/5/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
6/6/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
5/31/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
6/1/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
6/1/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
6/2/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
6/2/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
6/2/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Herman Rubin
6/2/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
6/2/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
6/3/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Herman Rubin
6/3/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
6/4/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Herman Rubin
6/4/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
6/4/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
6/1/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
6/1/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
6/1/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
namducnguyen
6/5/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Peter Percival
6/1/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
6/2/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
LudovicoVan
6/2/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
fom
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Charlie-Boo
5/27/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com
5/28/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Charlie-Boo
5/30/13
Read Re: LOGIC & MATHEMATICS
Zaljohar@gmail.com

Point your RSS reader here for a feed of the latest messages in this topic.

[Privacy Policy] [Terms of Use]

© Drexel University 1994-2014. All Rights Reserved.
The Math Forum is a research and educational enterprise of the Drexel University School of Education.