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Topic: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Replies: 32   Last Post: Jul 7, 2013 9:03 PM

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Robert Hansen

Posts: 7,515
From: Florida
Registered: 6/22/09
Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Posted: Jul 6, 2013 1:05 AM
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On Jul 5, 2013, at 11:47 PM, "Louis Talman" <talmanl@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 17:41:04 -0600, Robert Hansen <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:
>

>> Some, well, mainly Lou, have questioned my hypothesis that there has been a decline. Although, I think he means a decline in student ability, not a decline in the quality of mathematics education. I recall being exposed to so many derivations in my classes and producing many of them myself. Those are mostly gone today.
>
> I was graduated from high school in 1962; derivations, and "producing them myself" were gone by then---if they'd ever been there in the first place. They were in the textbooks, but the "teachers" ignored them. The closest I ever came to derivation in trigonometry was working trig identities using the standard identities---which we never bothered to derive. Only two or three of the fifteen us were any good at that---and the "teacher" handle us by calling on us to present the solutions to the hard ones. In so doing, he got us to think about those hard ones while not having to think about them himself.
>
> I see no reason to suppose that my high school was much different from most others. Certainly the students in my college calculus courses, in 1962-3 and 1963-4, gave no indication of having anything in their backgrounds much deeper than what I had.
>
> It wasn't until I took my first calculus course as a freshman in college that I encountered real concern about proofs and derivations. I was fortunate in that my professors there made proofs and derivations about half of their calculus sequence---all four semesters of it. And they examined us on those proofs and derivations, not only in the calculus sequence, but in the junior and senior comprehensive exams all math majors had to pass in order to be graduated. (Many of my colleagues during that first calculus sequence would not have agreed that any of this proof-and-derivation business was "fortunate"; a substantial fraction of them show themselves to be completely at sea at that business.)
>
> So, yes. I do question your hypothesis that there has been a decline, and I do mean a decline in the quality of mathematics education.
>
> --Louis A. Talman
> Department of Mathematical and Computer Sciences
> Metropolitan State University of Denver
>
> <http://rowdy.msudenver.edu/~talmanl>



I appreciate your input. While we obviously had two very different high school experiences, we at least seem to agree that the derivations were in the book. I recall that they were part of the plot. Actually, I don't have to recall, I bought the books. But I guess how much attention the teacher paid to that plot had much to do with their taste and/or ability. While a couple of my teachers (3 counting my physics teacher) did not rise to the level of your college professors, they did more than just mention the derivations. They generally walked through many of them in front of the class. In any event, for some reason, several of us were deriving like crazy, and it gave us a significant advantage, then and later.

I also recall Calculus (late 70's) being much more about deriving than about "concepts". Maybe it was the fact that our teacher was retired military and had attended West Point but we were more than just walked through the difference-quotient derivations of practically all of the derivatives we used. It might also have a lot to do with the simple fact that the exams of the day required such a treatment.

The following is a link to the 1969-1988 AB/BC exams. A noticeable difference from today's exams, no?

http://www.jlihs.ednet.ns.ca/math/pdf/AP%20Calculus%20(1969-1988MC).pdf


Can anyone else add their own (anecdotal) recollections on this issue?

Bob Hansen


Date Subject Author
7/4/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Clyde Greeno
7/4/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Robert Hansen
7/4/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Joe Niederberger
7/4/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
GS Chandy
7/4/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Robert Hansen
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Louis Talman
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
GS Chandy
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
GS Chandy
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
GS Chandy
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Robert Hansen
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Joe Niederberger
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Robert Hansen
7/6/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of
logic?
Wayne Bishop
7/6/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Robert Hansen
7/6/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Robert Hansen
7/7/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of
logic?
Wayne Bishop
7/7/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Robert Hansen
7/6/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of
logic?
Wayne Bishop
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Joe Niederberger
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Joe Niederberger
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Robert Hansen
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Joe Niederberger
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Robert Hansen
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Louis Talman
7/6/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Robert Hansen
7/6/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Robert Hansen
7/6/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Louis Talman
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Jonathan Crabtree
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
GS Chandy
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
Robert Hansen
7/7/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
GS Chandy
7/5/13
Read Re: Is logic part of mathematics - or is mathematics part of logic?
GS Chandy

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