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Topic: Keith Devlin's Online Course
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GS Chandy

Posts: 7,580
From: Hyderabad, Mumbai/Bangalore, India
Registered: 9/29/05
Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Posted: Dec 27, 2013 9:58 PM
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Kirby Urner (KU) posted Dec 27, 2013 12:20 PM (http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=9351790) - GSC's remarks interspersed:
>
> On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Robert Hansen
> <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:
>

> > > You seem to always shoulder students with the
> > > burden of suffering a math
> > > deficit, whereas it may be the school's curriculum
> > > and/or teachers and/or
> > > the whole culture of a high school that starts

> closing these doors.
> >
> > That?s not true. Most of my years here were spent
> > studying curriculums, in
> > detail. I blame the schools and curriculums for not
> > nurturing the students
> > who are good in math. The only students that
> > actually continue on after
> > school and use and apply this gift. The little bit
> > of math that the other
> > students pickup is soon forgotten.
> >

>
> I don't think what we call "math" in K-12 should at
> all try to style itself
> as some miniaturized version of what a college math
> major might study.
> It's its own animal.
>
> Numeric literacy includes using measurements and
> currency, telling time,
> arithmetic, appreciation for data visualization
> techniques and conventions,
> familiarity with rounding / rounding error /
> significant digits, an
> understanding of statistical arguments and concepts
> such as mean, mode and
> median, standard deviation (bell curve), interest,
> probabilities, the wave
> and particle nature of energy...
>
> Then I'd add some broad brush stroke overview
> perspective as a navigation
> aid, tell some history.
>

Yes indeed (and more)! Not just 'history', of course. (Your remarks in another post about providing 'STEAM' to STEM are significant, in this context).
>
> This history and context part is a part normally left
> out I realize, but is
> what you'd find in a Time-Life trade book such as
> 'Mathematics',
> influential on my younger self:
>
> http://wikieducator.org/File:Math_cover.jpg
>

I've not encountered 'Wikieducator' earlier - thanks for this reference. Shall try and investigate.
>
> I think many of those who survive the intensely dull
> presentation of grade
> schools are saved by trade books (not textbooks) such
> as the above, and
> today by stuff in the Internet, such as Mandelbrots
> and Mandelbulbs 'n
> stuff.
>

Yes, indeed. The "intensely dull" presentations at grade school focus almost entirely on the "HOWs?" - to the near-total exclusion of the "WHYs?". The 'trade books' (including I would guess, Scientific American, Discover, Quanta, and the like give us *some* connection to the "WHYs?". *Integrating* the "HOWs?" with the "WHYs?" is really (IMHO) the great task of education (and the 'system' is failing, alas!)

However, I observe that even the trade magazines often fail quite seriously. For example of a recent failure check out a recent article in SciAm "A New Tool to Help Mathematicians Pack" - http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-new-tool-to-help-mathematics-pack&posted=1#comments, (originally in Quanta, https://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20131220-nudging-spheres-closer-little-by-little/).

I note that investigation of the 'systems' under consideration via the relationship "CONTRIBUTES TO" (and its 'negative' "HINDERS") could help significantly to clarify the "HOWs?" along with the "WHYs?".

Some 'graphical representations' of these system relationships as models (as, for instance, in Warfield's Interpretive Structural Modeling) is generally needed in order to clarify 'relational matters' adequately for understanding all round. The 'pure prose' to which we are generally confined in our conventional discussions (including here at Math-teach) often leads to a significant lack of clarity all round.
>
> >> "Math dependent degree" includes a lot of them,
> >> including just about
> >> anything healthcare related. Maybe 3% want to be
> >> math majors, whereas 40%
> >> seek a math-dependent major.

> >
> > Arithmetic dependent, probably, but not math
> > dependent. And certainly not
> > pure math dependent.
> >

>
> Arithmetic for sure, but also using measurements and
> currency, telling
> time, appreciation for data visualization... is SQL
> arithmetic? I'd say
> not. Microsoft Access did a lot to expose cube
> farmers to the power of SQL
> in terms of pay scale. Get the DBA certification
> from Oracle or whatever
> and watch the income bump up.
>
> When I started my training as a high school math
> teacher (Jersey City,
> 1980s), just about every math teacher I met was
> training to go in the other
> direction: towards private sector IT. We lost a
> huge army of math
> teachers to careers writing Visual Basic. It's not
> too late (in theory).
> Many of those VBers would like to jump back into
> teaching math, but we
> won't let 'em (barriers to entry are high).
>
> Here's the paradox: computer science is a fancy
> extra most run-o-the-mill
> schools can't afford, but the high property tax areas
> can, so the only kids
> who know about XML / HTTP / CSS in any detail are
> privileged, get the good
> summer jobs and internships, join the nonprofits.
> People talking about the
> achievement gap never mention our solution / proposal
> in Oregon: let math
> teachers extend their curriculum such that all this
> vocational / applicable
> stuff stops being so elective / dispensable. Let
> them learn programming
> *for math credit* for a change, rather than making
> 'em burn out on
> calculus. I was sorry the politicians failed the IQ
> test and let it
> languish, but not surprised. Idiocracy is
> widespread.
>

> >
> >> Some students have just never had the benefit of
> >> an optimized learning
> >> environment. They have every potential to catch
> >> up and surpass, and yes,
> >> that potential is as yet unfulfilled. Not
> >> unusual.

> >
> > I am not saying that is not true. But this is not
> > the course I would point
> > that ?some? to. This course is not designed for the
> > student that found
> > their calling, even if they just found their
> > calling. Can this course help
> > a late student find their calling? Maybe, but I
> > would design it quite
> > differently. Similar topics but very different
> > treatment. This course lacks
> > a crucial element. It doesn?t prove to the student
> > that they are really
> > good at this, and that is what a calling is.
> >

>
> You should, design something quite differently and
> put your name on it.
> You evaluate the work of others but do you ever
> compete? I'm out there
> with my alternatives at least, however incomplete or
> whatever. But then I
> ramble through STEM, don't confine myself to the M
> part. For a long time
> I've marketed as ~M (not-mathematics -- just
> something quite like it).
>

Yes, indeed: as noted earlier, 'STEM' needs to be expanded to 'STEAM'.
>
> >
> >> That doesn't mean it's wrong to ill advised to
> >> steer them to courses
> >> like Devlin?s.

> >
> > My point was that Devlin?s course wasn?t actually a
> > ?course?. The topics
> > are good for the stated purpose, but the treatment
> > is off. You?d have to
> > read the textbook I guess. And I?ll wait for the
> > course in February to make
> > a final judgement.
> >

>
> I'm looking forward to when Robert Hansen's course is
> one of the
> offerings. Why not put your insights to good use?
>
>

> >
> >> Making sharp distinctions between pure and applied
> >> mathematics is not
> >> essential.

> >
> > Making sharp distinctions is always essential. And
> > this one isn?t
> > complicated. I like pure math, but my colleagues
> > and I didn?t find our
> > calling in solving everyday technical problems from
> > pure math. I am talking
> > about engineers, software engineers, financial
> > analysts, the list goes on.
> > That is why they call it ?applied? math. Can you
> > also study pure math? Yes,
> > but it obviously isn?t a requirement for everyday
> > problem solving because
> > the vast majority of people solving everyday
> > problems don?t have a lick of
> > pure math in them. To say it is a different path is
> > an understatement. When
> > Lou makes comments about engineers not knowing
> > ?math? my first thought is
> > ?Who doesn?t know that?"
> >

>
> Making sharp distinctions is often a complete waste
> of time unless you
> really love nit-picky religious wars that even
> further degenerate.
>
> What stands out about you is you seem quite
> conservative in having
> swallowed whole many of the very bad design decisions
> made by your
> ancestors. You seem to really like the status quo.
> That's unusual in my
> neck of the woods where everyone is raging against
> the machine. We almost
> forget your kind exists.
>
> In my view, STEM is STEM and attempts to atomize it
> further are usually
> quite misguided. What the letters stand for hints at
> the general domain,
> but if you admire polymaths like Hofstadter you have
> likely absorbed their
> oft-cited aversion to academic compartmentalization.
>

Hofstadter is (IMHO) one who has pretty successfully applied 'STEAM' in his writing (in particular in that great book "Godel-Escher-Bach:..."). Alas, the 'educational system' has not taken up the challenge he had thrown.
>
> Call it the revenge
> of the natural philosophers; they're snobbish against
> "over-specialists"
> though respectful of competence, in whatever form.
>

True 'competence' involves, I believe, *effective* (i.e. usable) understanding of both the 'HOWs?' and the 'WHYs?' of factors in the system.
>
> >
> >> Textbooks are very often formulaic, having you
> >> find roots of this and
> >> that polynomial, slopes of this and that line.
> >> What may not fall out of
> >> such formula-based learning is any confidence of
> >> being able to solve
> >> "generic problems" that life my pose.

> >
> > That depends on the textbook. Unfortunately, the
> > textbooks of today are so
> > remedial in design that they never get to the
> > enjoyable part of applying
> > all these new skills and insights to a compendium
> > of problems like our
> > textbooks did. They are so focused on the majority
> > of students that are not
> > good at math that they never get to the pace that
> > occurs with students who
> > are good at math. Because of the algebra mandate,
> > the purpose of math
> > education in secondary school has changed from
> > choosing math as one of your
> > life's pursuits to just learning some math. And
> > this has had a large impact
> > on qualified students finding their muse. It was
> > easy in our day, you could
> > be good at math, like you could be good at music,
> > you could be good at
> > sports. Now you can only be good at music or
> > sports, but not math.
> >
> >

>
> I wouldn't go back though. Don't take away my
> Google, my Youtube.
>
>

> >
> >> At some point in a student's career we let them
> >> know about "numerical
> >> recipes" and the fact that whole books of them are
> >> out there for
> >> consultation.

> >
> > Let?s not paint a rosy picture where there isn?t
> > one. Numerical recipes is
> > not a best seller. And schools are not turning out
> > as many math artists as
> > they once were that could appreciate ?Numerical
> > Recipes? or even understand
> > it.
> >

>
> Knowing what algorithms apply: that was useful to me
> for example. I knew
> how to use the Internet to find Qhull, free software
> for finding a maximum
> convex hull given a smattering of points in XYZ.
> Just what I needed. And
> free. I incorporated Qhull into my studies of
> Waterman Polyhedrons without
> knowing in detail how it worked. But yet I could use
> it well enough to get
> sensible results. Quite a bit of math savvy resides
> in such "fitting the
> pieces together" skills, is what I'm saying.
>

Yes, indeed. I do strongly believe that Bucky Fuller's insights, specifically into what I call 'natural engineering systems' do need clarification - and I believe you may be appropriately qualified to do that. Why not try? (I mean, you would need to go a bit firther than 'Biz-Mo', I feel).
>
> >
> >> Those who use mathematical techniques to grapple
> >> with problems are less
> >> in need of great memorization skills than great
> >> research skills.

> >
> > The evidence I see is that you can?t have one
> > without the other. There is
> > no shortcut to being smart and good at what you do.
> > You need the reasoning
> > and you need the memorization. I have never seen
> > someone make it with
> > "research skills". Those candidates stand out right
> > away.
> >

>
> I'm thinking a strong mathematician often has great
> research skills,
> including the ability to find the five or six other
> people in billions
> right now focusing on similar problems. I have this
> friend that calls me
> to talk about phi-scaled tetrahedrons, assemblies
> thereof, variations on
> that theme. It's not a conversation he can have with
> just anyone. People
> glaze over when you start talking polyhedrons at 'em.
>

Yes. How to overcome this tendency? Problem still unsolved!!!
>
> His name is David
> and he's the guy who invited me to Minnesota so we
> could go visit Magnus
> Wenninger, which we did. Magnus, age 91 (92?) is a
> big fish in that tiny
> world of polyhedron fanatics.
>

Had not heard earlier of Magnus Wenninger - can you provide some links to his writings/work? (I shall, of course, check out on Google, if possible).
>
> >
> >> Where are the cookbooks? How do you match a
> >> problem to an algorithm?
> >> Those are skills too, beyond proving.

> >
> > Now you are agreeing with me on the difference
> > between applied and pure
> > math. But there are plenty of cookbooks out there,
> > in everything. And I use
> > them all the time, but you have to be smart to know
> > where to look and how
> > to apply them. Again, there is no shortcut to being
> > smart and good at what
> > you do. The lack of google was never a barrier to
> > being smart and good at
> > what you do before the internet, so how can it be
> > an enabler of the same?
> > It isn?t.
> >

>
> Just what I was saying: "smarts" includes knowing
> where and how.
>

I'd suggest the *real smarts* must involve the "HOWs?" and the "WHYs?" of the things - scarcely EVER are these clarified!!
>
> >
> >> Finding the theorem and realizing it's relevance,
> >> locating the right
> >> recipe in the library, is all part of what one
> >> needs. Good road maps.
> >> Overviews. Most K-12 textbook math is fairly
> >> bereft of such concept maps.

> >
> > No. If this were true then over the years I would
> > have seen a steady surge
> > in qualified candidates for the technical positions
> > we post for. I have
> > seen a study surge in the breadth of expertise in
> > the qualified candidates
> > but no surge at all in the number of qualified
> > candidates. A sharp decline
> > in fact.
> >

>
> Why? Do you think they're teaching research skills
> any better? The tools
> have improved, definitely, but some of the high
> school libraries I've
> visited actively discouraged using the Web. They
> call it the Free Web and
> point out that the most trustworthy and best
> information still costs money,
> so if you want good grades, look through stuff you
> have to pay for.
>

Amazing! I guess it will take another generation or so to ensure adequate acceptance of the Internet and the Web. The underlying problem is (I believe) that we humans really no longer have all the time in the world to sort 'our problems' out. The major problem (in my view) is that we have too long believed ourselves to be "MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE", which is clearly a false belief. Problem is, too few of us realise this.
>
> You
> may think I'm kidding, but I have photographs of the
> posters in the school
> library, spinning just such falsehoods. Poor USAers,
> so oppressed by mis-
> and dis-info (and yet they consider themselves "well
> off"? "Developed"?).
>

The major falsehood: "WE ARE THE MASTERS OF THE UNIVERSE!"
>
> > Think about what you are saying.
> >
> > Has not the internet made research incredibly more
> > easy than our day?
> > Certainly you remember the before time. Before the
> > internet.
> >

>
> Easier yes, but are research skills being taught? My
> teachers (an unusual
> crew, mostly expats) consciously taught them and told
> us that's what they
> were doing. Concept maps, card catalog, note cards,
> thesis, outline,
> footnotes -- all stuff mathematicians need to know
> about, and then some.
>

Yes, indeed. However, I'd suggest:

Doodling; outline; footnotes; card catalogue; concept maps - the importance of the first and the last of these is not yet adequately understood!
>
> Bibliographies of bibliographies... Princeton had
> lots of those.
>

> >
> > If road maps and research had anything to do with
> > conquering these
> > technical fields, wouldn?t we have seen a surge
> > rather than a decline?
> >

>
> Not if no one is learning to drive.
>

Only those who are already hopelessly lost claim that road maps aren't important!
>
> > Being smart and good at what you do is the key.
> > That is what needs to be
> > nurtured. Not excuses.
> >

>
> Yeah, I know. I find approximately no one is as
> smart as they could be,
> but we live in a culture that expects and rewards
> dummies. Being smart
> means being lonely at parties.
>
> But that's cultural and we have subcultures. I put a
> lot of hope in
> those. The speech and debate world, for example. Go
> Cleveland Cannibals!
>

Alas, the 'speech and debate world' is still stuck in the 'pure prose' mode of communication! (I guess, 'Cleveland Cannibals' WON'T go very far unless we being to understand the "HOWs?" and the "WHYs?" of communication).

GSC


Message was edited by: GS Chandy


Date Subject Author
12/24/13
Read Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/24/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/24/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/27/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
1/1/14
Read Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/2/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/2/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
12/26/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/28/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/28/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Anna Roys
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Anna Roys
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Louis Talman
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Louis Talman
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Louis Talman
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Louis Talman
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/4/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/4/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/4/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/5/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Bishop, Wayne
1/5/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen

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