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Topic: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Replies: 88   Last Post: Jan 5, 2014 9:31 PM

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Robert Hansen

Posts: 7,970
From: Florida
Registered: 6/22/09
Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Posted: Dec 30, 2013 9:58 AM
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> I didn't claim those failing algebra made up today's cast of SQL slingers (me one of them -- did fine in Al Jabr).
>
> I'm saying basic record keeping is the province of all to learn about in a democracy, and to hold back so severely when to comes to teaching anything about key technologies is fascist / royalist. If school is about making people more helpless and clueless than ever, then it's doing a good job by making "math class" so bereft of current content. If I were a Black Panther in the 60s (which I'm not, duh), I'd be teaching SQL in the basements of Chicago to ghetto kids for the AFSC. The FBI would be watching me. "Those skills are too dangerous in the hands of the underclass" said the memo from Hoover (played by DiCaprio in a recent film).


But these kids are failing algebra. Saying ?Teach them SQL instead.? is like saying ?Let them eat cake.? I think you would first have to get to the bottom of why they fail algebra first.



>
> They have more than enough PCs floating around, doing nothing. And it certainly isn?t math that keeps schools from teaching CS. Math and CS go together like peanut butter and jelly. Maybe you were in a coma for the last 20 years, but most of the energy in public schools has shifted to the bottom 25% and the disabled. It takes all their energy just to rig test scores and give a semblance of diversity. It isn?t like it was when we went to school. Yes, you can escape a lot of this by moving to an expensive zip code or going to a private school. Or you might be lucky enough to be part of a selective public school or focused charter school. But how can you blame people for taking those options when you know very well what mainstream public schooling has become?
>
>
>
> So if CS and Math go together like PB&J then why no SQL in high school hardly?


Why no SQL? Because there isn?t any math. You can?t have J without PB. And I answered why. Public school isn?t about that anymore. You really don?t get the level of fraud involved now. I don?t think people, 30 years ago, would believe you if you went back in time and told them how it is now. There are exceptions, as I noted earlier. But the odds are very stacked against kids from average families having the opportunities we had when we went to school. You talk about expensive zip codes and better offerings, but that was the general model of all schools back when we went to school. Not the same rich students, but at least many of the same opportunities. If they taught SQL in school back then, it would have at least been a genuine attempt and not just a phony semblance.

With as much of their energy as is focused on the bottom 25% and disabled now, and you want SQL classes? They aren?t even teaching math like that anymore, why would they teach SQL any better? And stop blaming the lack of CS on math, because they aren?t teaching math.:) If they were teaching math you would have your bunch of eager CS candidates that wouldn?t let you leave at the end of the day.

I don?t exactly know what happened other than we have an educational system that is terminally infected with politics, money and greed. As far as I can tell, even though the doors of education were opened for all, educationalists were not happy with the lack of progress with protected classes. At first, their efforts were genuine, like Headstart. But the failures continued and after a couple decades, colleges took matters into their own hands and decided that the purpose of our institutions of higher education, should not be to educate, but to equalize. The success of the civil rights struggle, like equal access to education, wasn?t good enough. This didn?t happen overnight. It isn?t like Jo Boaler could have pulled off a 12th grade calculus class doing 5th grade math back then. But the colleges kept at it. First with affirmative action and when that got struck down they lowered standards. And then they created teacher quotas and really strange majors in order to show a return. In effect, a ponzi scheme. And you have the fraud we have now.

Why did they do this? I don?t know. From the outside you would think that they would realize that a bunch of fake degrees would hurt more than help. But in the beginning I suppose things were booming, like the housing bubble, and people generally don?t think that way when things are booming. The other thing I have noticed is that they are not very connected with the reality outside of college. They need more experience with ?doing? to offset the ?thinking?. To much thinking and not enough doing and you end up in a fiction.

> Throw a dart at Chicago and take the nearest high school. "Do you teach any SQL in this building?" And repeat, with other cities and counties.
>
> Nothing too fancy with the SQL, just a "how things work" approach linked to Venn Diagrams, the boolean type (WHERE clause conditions), the usual truth tables for if-then, and, or (contrapositive etc.). Logical fallacies. Logic gates. More history of the development of today's technology. Shoulda been doing that already. Today's content is so retro.
>
> The math textbooks are not especially CS friendly. We've discussed this already, for years, on this very Forum.
>
> We need hexadecimal and binary, even Base 64 for mime types sent via SMTP. What's SMTP? What's HTTP? What are mime types? The smart kids are left to study that on their own for the most part.


And if you remember, all of that, except for the protocols (that didn?t even exist then) were in our math classes back then. That is why Devlin?s course looks 10th grade.

Bob Hansen


Date Subject Author
12/24/13
Read Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/24/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/24/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/27/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
1/1/14
Read Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/2/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/2/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
12/26/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/28/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/28/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Anna Roys
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Anna Roys
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Louis Talman
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Louis Talman
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Louis Talman
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Louis Talman
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/4/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/4/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/4/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/5/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Bishop, Wayne
1/5/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen

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