Drexel dragonThe Math ForumDonate to the Math Forum



Search All of the Math Forum:

Views expressed in these public forums are not endorsed by Drexel University or The Math Forum.


Math Forum » Discussions » Education » math-teach

Topic: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Replies: 88   Last Post: Jan 5, 2014 9:31 PM

Advanced Search

Back to Topic List Back to Topic List Jump to Tree View Jump to Tree View   Messages: [ Previous | Next ]
GS Chandy

Posts: 7,252
From: Hyderabad, Mumbai/Bangalore, India
Registered: 9/29/05
Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Posted: Dec 31, 2013 12:52 AM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

Agreeing in many parts but not in toto to Kirby Urner's arguments dt. http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=9353106 (http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=9353106) [his post copied in full below my signature for ready reference], here are a few points I'd like to put forward:
>
> (Education needs to be) "public, but
> under local control" importing influences
> selectively, including from
> Asia and New Zealand
>

And EVERYTHING to be *designed effectively* by the stakeholders involved: the stakeholders must involve:
-- teachers; students; parents; administrators; education experts; politicians; others interested to contribute. (Even Haim, Professor Wayne Bishop and Robert Hansen should be given the opportunity to put forth their good ideas [and even their bad ideas!]) - AND to see them *integrated* into the systems that develop.

All of the above is entirely possible to accomplish, I claim, and it is not really terribly difficult to do, if all involved would learn how to debate complex issues *effectively*. Some (a very tiny amount of) learning and a fair bit of 'unlearning' is involved in accomplishing the above.

The conventional 'prose mode of discussion and argument' (as is generally practiced (including at Math-teach), will not be sufficient by any means (as should be evident by now).
>
> More experimentation, not less, is what's needed.
>
> That means loosening the grip of the top-down
> authoritarians.
>

Absolutely!
>
I really have little idea about specifically *how* and *when* and *how much* of 'computer science' (CS) needs to be *integrated* with the 'learning of math' - though I AM certain that we have not at all derived the benefits to education made made possible by the developments in CS over the past few decades. For that matter, we have not at all understood how to *integrate* Buckminster Fuller's profound ideas about what I call 'natural engineering'.

This is connected with the fact that our 'conventional systems' (educational; other; you name it) severely suppress and constrict the natural 'question-asking faculty' that every child has. See, for instance, the discussion at "How a Child Learns", herewith attached.

GSC
KU's post:
Kirby Urner posted Dec 30, 2013 10:58 PM (http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=9353106):
> On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 6:58 AM, Robert Hansen
> <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:
>

> >> I didn't claim those failing algebra made up
> today's cast of SQL slingers
> >> (me one of them -- did fine in Al Jabr).
> >>
> >> I'm saying basic record keeping is the province of

> all to learn about in a
> >> democracy, and to hold back so severely when to
> comes to teaching anything
> >> about key technologies is fascist / royalist. If
> school is about making
> >> people more helpless and clueless than ever, then
> it's doing a good job by
> >> making "math class" so bereft of current content.
> If I were a Black
> >> Panther in the 60s (which I'm not, duh), I'd be
> teaching SQL in the
> >> basements of Chicago to ghetto kids for the AFSC.
> The FBI would be
> >> watching me. "Those skills are too dangerous in
> the hands of the
> >> underclass" said the memo from Hoover (played by
> DiCaprio in a recent film).
>

> >
> > But these kids are failing algebra. Saying ?Teach

> them SQL instead.? is
> > like saying ?Let them eat cake.? I think you would
> first have to get to the
> > bottom of why they fail algebra first.
> >
> >

>
> Which kids again? The ones attracted to Devlin's new
> class?
>
> The idea here in Oregon when I met with teachers from
> around the state that
> time, was to carve out a new 3rd year math that would
> be a grab bag of
> these "computational thinking" memes, the stuff some
> say is "CS" but is
> really its own thing just like high school math in
> general is its own
> thing, and elementary school too. These aren't just
> mirror images of
> something in college.
>
> So you'd take like algebra + geometry in 9th and 10th
> grade say, and then,
> as a junior, you might opt for this discrete math
> stuff. It'd be elective
> in the sense that trig and stats are elective (in
> some schools) but still
> count towards the *mandatory* three years of math for
> that high school
> degree. The elective CS courses never did that
> (didn't give any math
> credit, perversely).
>
> Nothing here about "failing algebra". You might get
> all As in algebra and
> geometry and then opt for a course that, like my
> pilots for Saturday
> Academy, involve rendering polyhedrons in POV-Ray
> (free ray tracing
> software), reading their data from relational tables
> (SQL), using matrix
> algebra to rotate them -- shades of IB (International
> Baccalaureate --
> which does more with vectors than plain vanilla
> pre-calc).
>
> This was not a "TAG course" (for "talented and
> gifted") especially, just
> another path through the STEM side of high school, an
> option, an
> opportunity.
>
> I think we could easily develop four years worth of
> such alternative
> material. For example, we want to explore the
> Document Object Model (DOM)
> a lot more too.
>
> So we probably need to overhaul language / grammar /
> communications courses
> just as much. It's like a whole parallel curriculum
> in Smarter America [tm].
>
> Really it's time to start over from scratch in a lot
> of ways, meaning we
> need much more local experimentation and much less
> top-down regimentation.
>
> The more we move towards one size fit all, the more
> we all go over the same
> cliffs.
>
> Fortunately, it's not all about "the USA" and what
> happens there.
> Breakthroughs can and do happen locally anywhere.
>
> There's nothing "at the national level" that needs to
> happen. I have no
> need to dash off to Washington, DC in some fevered
> dream that it's my job
> to "reform the nation" -- that'd seem pathological.
>
>

> >> So if CS and Math go together like PB&J then why
> no SQL in high school
> >> hardly?
> >
> >
> > Why no SQL? Because there isn?t any math.
> >

>
> Oh come come, you know better than that. You've got
> union and
> intersection, boolean filtering, unique keys. It's a
> lot of that same set
> stuff they trucked out in the 60s as New Math.
>
> With the new PostGIS extensions, your SELECT
> statements are perhaps within
> polygons i.e. you may select all street intersections
> (vertexes, nodes)
> within a zip code.
>
> In Portland, we might freely copy Tri-Met's open
> source version of the trip
> routing software and study that.
>
> You say there's no math in plotting an optimum mixed
> mode (bus and bike)
> trip across town? The bike trip planner has the
> option to plan for least
> gradient i.e. longer distance but no steep hills.
> Any math there?
>
> HTML5 has SQL built right in doesn't it? The basic
> grammar of our day,
> what makes any web page a reality, is HTML.
>
> You could say it doesn't have any math either, yet to
> share math notation
> on the web you need to understand something about the
> DOM and JavaScript.
> MathJax, MathML...
>
> The picture you describe, of the state of public
> education, sounds rather
> post-apocalyptic. The situation may be hopeless if
> you're right.
>
> I favor more exchange programs, more mixing it up, as
> an antidote to
> getting too stuck in these ruts.
>
> I hear in Japanese schools the kids rotate helping
> with food prep and bring
> the lunches to the classrooms, learning service as
> well. None of this
> going to the cafeteria nonsense or, more likely, the
> fast food joint across
> the street.
>
> Some schools build in gardening as a part of the
> curriculum. Public
> schools. Here in Portland.
>
> More experimentation, not less, is what's needed.
>
> That means loosening the grip of the top-down
> authoritarians.
>
> At some level my ideology makes me an ally of others
> NOT getting their
> marching orders from Washington, DC.
>
> But "not federal" doesn't mean "not public". Rather,
> it means "public, but
> under local control" and importing influences
> selectively, including from
> Asia and New Zealand (given our geographic location:
> Cascadia).
>
> Kirby



Message was edited by: GS Chandy


Date Subject Author
12/24/13
Read Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/24/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/24/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/27/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
1/1/14
Read Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/2/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/2/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
kirby urner
1/5/14
Read Re: Why Casual Programming doesn't Exist
Robert Hansen
12/26/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/28/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/28/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
kirby urner
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Anna Roys
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/29/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Anna Roys
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/30/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Joe Niederberger
12/31/13
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Louis Talman
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Louis Talman
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/1/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Louis Talman
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Louis Talman
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/2/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/3/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/4/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/4/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/4/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen
1/5/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
GS Chandy
1/5/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Bishop, Wayne
1/5/14
Read Re: Keith Devlin's Online Course
Robert Hansen

Point your RSS reader here for a feed of the latest messages in this topic.

[Privacy Policy] [Terms of Use]

© Drexel University 1994-2014. All Rights Reserved.
The Math Forum is a research and educational enterprise of the Drexel University School of Education.