Drexel dragonThe Math ForumDonate to the Math Forum



Search All of the Math Forum:

Views expressed in these public forums are not endorsed by Drexel University or The Math Forum.


Math Forum » Discussions » sci.math.* » sci.math.independent

Topic: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
Replies: 62   Last Post: Feb 22, 2014 12:11 AM

Advanced Search

Back to Topic List Back to Topic List Jump to Tree View Jump to Tree View   Messages: [ Previous | Next ]
David Hartley

Posts: 451
Registered: 12/13/04
Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
Posted: Feb 17, 2014 9:42 AM
  Click to see the message monospaced in plain text Plain Text   Click to reply to this topic Reply

In message <a5d96867-54e8-4d1b-b960-1ea47819d7c4@googlegroups.com>, Ken
Quirici <kquirici@yahoo.com> writes
>It would be an interesting exercise (at least it seems to me) to
>imagine this Euclidean axiomatic system INDEPENDENT of ANY pictures.
>How many 'realities' would this system model? I suspect there are many
>that have absolutely nothing to do with geometry. That is, take the
>axioms as simply words that relate to each other in logical ways and
>see what they can represent.


I was going to suggest this to you, but you've got there on your own.
Imagine trying to explain Euclid's proofs to a blind man. If it can't be
done solely from the axioms and postulates, with no diagrams, then it's
not a valid proof.

It is indeed true that the explicit axioms and postulates in the
Elements are not sufficient for even the simplest of his proofs.

Most trivially, there's nothing to ensure that there even exist any
points or lines.

More importantly, as was raised at the start of this thread, without an
axiom that ensures that certain circles intersect, most of the
constructions fail.

Consider a system consisting of a single straight line and the points
thereon. It satisfies all Euclid's explicit postulates (and Pasch's
axiom) but circles have only two points in their circumferences and
circles with a common radius do not intersect. There are no equilateral
triangles.

So even if you take Euclid's postulates and add the existence of point
and line, Pasch's axiom and any necessary order axioms, you still don't
have enough to prove Proposition 1.

Add an axiom that ensures there is a point not on a given line and it
may be possible, I don't know.

--
David Hartley


Date Subject Author
2/14/14
Read Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ken quirici
2/14/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
2/15/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/15/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
bert
2/15/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/16/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
2/16/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/15/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/15/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
Brian Q. Hutchings
2/15/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ken quirici
2/15/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
FredJeffries@gmail.com
2/15/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ken quirici
2/15/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/16/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ken quirici
2/16/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ken quirici
2/16/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ken quirici
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ken quirici
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ken quirici
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ken quirici
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
YBM
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
David Hartley
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ken quirici
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
David Hartley
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ken quirici
2/19/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
David Hartley
2/20/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ross.finlayson@gmail.com
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ken quirici
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/17/14
Read book fourteen is the best (Hypsicles, to start with [ph* the
encyclopedic "curriculum
Brian Q. Hutchings
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
Ken.Pledger@vuw.ac.nz
2/17/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
David Bernier
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
Ken.Pledger@vuw.ac.nz
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ken quirici
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
Wizard-Of-Oz
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
Wizard-Of-Oz
2/19/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/19/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
Wizard-Of-Oz
2/19/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
Brian Q. Hutchings
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
ken quirici
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
Brian Q. Hutchings
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
thenewcalculus@gmail.com
2/18/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
Brian Q. Hutchings
2/20/14
Read Re: Euclid's Elements Book 1 Proposition 1 - something Euclid missed?
Brian Q. Hutchings
2/22/14
Read A discussion about my discussion with Ken Quirici.
thenewcalculus@gmail.com

Point your RSS reader here for a feed of the latest messages in this topic.

[Privacy Policy] [Terms of Use]

© Drexel University 1994-2014. All Rights Reserved.
The Math Forum is a research and educational enterprise of the Drexel University School of Education.