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Topic: Structured Programming
Replies: 103   Last Post: Mar 25, 2014 12:33 AM

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kirby urner

Posts: 1,913
Registered: 11/29/05
Re: Structured Programming
Posted: Mar 6, 2014 11:22 PM
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On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 10:10 PM, Robert Hansen <bob@rsccore.com> wrote:

> On Mar 6, 2014, at 5:40 PM, kirby urner <kirby.urner@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> > Yes, you two have been having an irrelevant side conversation that has
> very little to do with anything math-teachy. Big yawn. It's what's called
> a "pissing contest" nothing more,
>
> Actually, and I realize this after reviewing all those past exchanges with
> Joe that I referenced, Joe was going to turn it into a pissing contest
> right out of the gate. Now that I am more aware of what is going on I am
> better prepared to deal with it.
>
> Excepting the pissing contest, It does appear that some viewers got
> something out of all this. I am not sure what you mean by anything
> math-teachy. You are the one that keeps insisting on teaching students
> programming in math class. That is why this conversation happened here at
> all. My original point was how different these two domains can be. They may
> attract similar minds but combining them in one class as early as you
> propose is not pedagogically sound.



Joe is the one who seems more focused on younger kids.

I'm happy to wait until after Algebra 1.

And even then, these for-math-credit courses are optional / elective.


> I think we can go on empirical evidence here and it seems to suggest that
> students don't acquire the necessary mental maturity to start mixing things
> up till 16 years of age or so. You even seemed to agree with that
> sentiment.



That's right. High school does not end at 16 years of age. I'm not
focused on 11 year olds. Nor will you be, when your son is 17.

You'll probably be teaching him programming (will have been doing so).

Geeks teach their baby geeks how to swim, throw a frisbee, and to code.

Not having our notations, e.g. dot notation, taught in schools, is a kind of
bigotry against our geek ethnicity. I protest on civil rights grounds.


> Yet here you are back to teaching students that f(x) means something like...
>
> int factorial(int n) {
> if (n == 1) return n;
> return n * factorial(n - 1);
> }
>
> Isn't it a lot easier, in math class, to get the point across by saying n!
> = 1 * 2 * 3 * ... * n?
>
>

They'll probably use a calculator rather than something they wrote
in code. They won't use pencil and paper much.

Factorial is used in probabilities / combinatorics, so we would be
adding more functions to this one soon, making use of factorial().

No need for recursion BTW:

def factorial(n):
result = 1
for m in range(n,1,-1): # step down from n to 2
result = result * m
return result

print(factorial(5))
print(5*4*3*2)

[ indentation viewable in plaintext mode ]


> You really need to go through all of that first, and in mathematical
> contexts, like combinatorics and probability, before you lay another layer
> of abstraction on their young minds.
>


The above is all I need and I can use it interactively, like a calculator,
importing from my own work:

>>> from my_own_work import factorial
>>> factorial(5)

120

Just knowing Algebra was enough to follow the logic.


> I suggest that you are still seeing this from the eyes of a middle aged
> python programmer. Not those of a 14 year old. I suspect that lies at the
> heart of many failed reforms. What makes sense to older people doesn't make
> pedagogical sense.
>
> Bob Hansen



I suggest I've already taught this stuff to quite a few 16+ year olds who
already knew algebra and the typical reaction is "why don't they always
teach math like this? i.e. I'm learning so much more, it's more fun,
and I can see the job-relevance easily."

You're coming at this from the perspective of a middle aged programmer
who was never a full time high school math teacher and who has not
taught Python to 16+ year olds in math class.

But these pilots I ran, since moving back to Cascadia, were "math classes"
only in the sense of covering lots of math in an interactive manner. They
were not for math credit. Some were for home schoolers.

To have classes such as I've already taught, count towards the three years
of high school math you need for a diploma, is the next puzzle piece we
need. A green light from the legislature.

But the one-size-fits-all mass publishing lobby is likely not happy with
this
idea. What are the politicians hearing from Pearson I'm wondering?

Kirby


Date Subject Author
3/6/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/6/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/7/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Louis Talman
3/7/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/7/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/7/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/8/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/9/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/9/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/9/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/9/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/10/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/9/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/10/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/11/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Louis Talman
3/11/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/11/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/9/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/10/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/9/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/9/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/9/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/10/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/10/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/11/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/10/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/11/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/11/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/11/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/11/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/11/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/12/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/13/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/13/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/13/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/13/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/13/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/13/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/13/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/13/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/13/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/16/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/15/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/13/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/14/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/14/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy
3/15/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/16/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/16/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/16/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/16/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/16/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/17/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/19/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
kirby urner
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/19/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/20/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Louis Talman
3/20/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/20/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Louis Talman
3/18/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/19/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/19/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Robert Hansen
3/20/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Louis Talman
3/19/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
Joe Niederberger
3/25/14
Read Re: Structured Programming
GS Chandy

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